Spirituality, mental health and nutrition

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Altair

It's because religion for the masses focusses on different things. Did you also consider the possibility that many people don't create conditions, i.e. they don't starve themselves, sleep on nail beds, or have an eating disorder. If I follow you correctly, than do you come to the conclusion that anorexia, schizophrenia, depression, and severe malnourishment are possible signs of spiritual living (?).

No. You didn't follow me correctly, because you already have your strong bias, and misinterpret what I write.

I already wrote:

Originally Posted by inavalan

I wouldn't say that there is any connection between mental illness and true spirituality. So, I believe that those that use methods like those you criticized in your posts, are unfortunate fools.

Your "for the masses" shows another bias toward victim-hood. Religions weren't inflicted on the masses. Both their initiators, and the followers did that from a need to interpret whatever they experienced. Were there people who tried to benefit from religions, were there fanatics too? Yes but religions didn't begin for those reasons, and even today those aren't the engines that drive religions.

Originally Posted by Altair

There's the possibility that religions started with confused men that impressed the crowds with fancy tales, based on their prolonged sense deprived practices that induced certain experiences. Jesus and Buddha were both fasting for prolonged periods. It's interesting how those suffering from an eating disorder or starvation are more likely to experience hallucination. The guy stranded in the wilds who couldn't find food, etc. Others then get mesmerized by these ''otherworldly'' preachers, and may feel determined to also create conditions that deprive the body of health.

I'm almost sure you can do better than this ... If you keep this kind of "activism" you lost me.

Originally Posted by Altair

Creating Hallucinations Without Drugs Is Surprisingly Easy: https://www.sciencealert.com/how-to-...y-easy-science

What Happens To The Body And Mind When Starvation Sets In?: https://wamu.org/story/16/01/20/what...ion_ sets_in/.

Carl Olson, Indian Asceticism: Power, Violence, and Play.

If you think this is an argument, then I find it ridiculous.

You seem to look to pick up a fight. I'm not going there. I replied to express my view, not to argue or convince you, or anybody (read my signature).

[Altair]

Lost person in the wilds >> lack of food (possibly water) / inadequate nutrition / poor sleep >> hallucination, delusions.

• Person has no intention to induce mystical experience.
• Uncontrolled experience, no followers to 'read' it as religiously meaningful. He was just 'lost'.

Self-styled spiritual person practising extreme asceticism >> lack of food (possibly water) / inadequate nutrition / poor sleep >> hallucination, delusions.

• Person has intention to induce mystical experience.
• Controlled experience, followers will 'read' it as religious meaningful. Person actualizes religious 'truth'.

It is a similar experience but it won't always be viewed in the same light, such as a meaningful religious experience for followers or the masses. When people with eating disorders also lack food and adequate nutrition, they start to experience hallucination and delusions. Or should I call it by a different name? I don't see why you say this is ''activism''. This here is exploration, not activism.

I support ascetic practices, but I think we should be mindful of practices and beliefs that lead to malnourishment, starvation, and deprivation as these will mess up the body and the brain. I think people should aim for health, not wither away and confuse weakness and tingling, or effects of body eating its own fat away as enlightening, or confuse induced hallucination due to starvation with some secret about the cosmos. If we take decline in health as a sign of ''spiritual growth'' than what does that really say?

[inavalan]

I don't support ascetic practices. I believe that they are unnecessarily painful ways of trying to achieve a worthwhile goal.

The fact that uniformed observation of two phenomena seems to show the same thing doesn't mean that they are the expression of the same thing. Isn't it?

Why is it so difficult to understand?
- by chance and by design, people had psychic experiences they found meaningful or intriguing
- they didn't know what caused them, and based on uninformed observation and experimentation they came with some techniques
- rituals developed around those techniques and experiences
- most of those rituals aren't necessary, if at all, but people don't know better
- some rituals may be challenging for the practitioner's health, but that doesn't mean that there are no healthy genuine psychic experiences.

Let the people do whatever they believe they have to do, as long as they don't violate the laws of the land! Trying to prevent them from doing that, especially in the name of helping them, I call "activism" (a pejorative).

No reasonable person takes decline in health as a sign of spiritual growth. That's your uninformed opinion.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by inavalan

I don't support ascetic practices. I believe that they are unnecessarily painful ways of trying to achieve a worthwhile goal.

You're thinking perhaps of extreme cases. Just meditating a lot for a few days or abstinence from sex for a while, or a retreat for a few days, if done in the name of spirituality, are not necessarily painful, but also asceticism.

Originally Posted by inavalan

The fact that uniformed observation of two phenomena seems to show the same thing doesn't mean that they are the expression of the same thing. Isn't it?

I'm not implying causation here, but the correlations are strong. Poor people and poor countries are more likely to also suffer from malnourishment, and they happen to be also more religious overall and you hear many claims coming from such countries. For all we know, specific spiritual traditions and their messages are the result of a starved body and brain, caused both by willing (and unwilling) malnourishment and starvation. The difference between the two does not necessarily seem to matter as the outcome can be similar. This is what I find rather intriguing!

Originally Posted by inavalan

Why is it so difficult to understand? - by chance and by design, people had psychic experiences they found meaningful or intriguing

Probably by chance, then the ones after that are more likely to consciously create conditions that induce a similar experience.

Originally Posted by inavalan

Let the people do whatever they believe they have to do, as long as they don't violate the laws of the land! Trying to prevent them from doing that, especially in the name of helping them, I call "activism" (a pejorative).

Nope, there is no ''activism'' here, there is exploration between induced hallucination and delusional thinking, caused by starvation, malnourishment, and deprivation. This may very well be the actual origins of many of the world's religions, seeing that they started out by people that preached asceticism.

If you don't like me saying that it's better to be healthy instead of using starvation as a spiritual pursuit to induce a mystical experience than forget about that. It does not devalue the connections I have made here.

Originally Posted by inavalan

No reasonable person takes decline in health as a sign of spiritual growth. That's your uninformed opinion.

Many people apparently do, because they take the words of such teachers as infallible truths, which I explored, so it's not just an ''uninformed opinion''.

[Altair]

Prolonged fasting in the Bible:

• Moses fasted for forty days on Sinai while "talking to God" - the result was the 10 Commandments (Exodus 34:28).
  
• After a final meal, Elijah also fasted forty days as he journeyed to Horeb, where, in a cave, he experiences a range of effects, including a commandment about who is to be future king of Syria (1 Kings 19:8-15).
  
• Jesus also fasted 40 days and as a result, experienced a battle with Satan in a series of visions (Matthew 4:1-11).

''As a species, we have been artificially inducing mystical experiences for as long as there are records of our behaviour. '' [from: http://www.humanreligions.info/hallucinations.html ]

Originally Posted by Altair

Nope, there is no ''activism'' here

None at all!

Originally Posted by Altair

Prolonged fasting in the Bible:

• Moses fasted for forty days on Sinai while "talking to God" - the result was the 10 Commandments (Exodus 34:28).
  
• After a final meal, Elijah also fasted forty days as he journeyed to Horeb, where, in a cave, he experiences a range of effects, including a commandment about who is to be future king of Syria (1 Kings 19:8-15).
  
• Jesus also fasted 40 days and as a result, experienced a battle with Satan in a series of visions (Matthew 4:1-11).

''As a species, we have been artificially inducing mystical experiences for as long as there are records of our behaviour. '' [from: http://www.humanreligions.info/hallucinations.html ]

Are you secretly jealous that there are so many who have found peace and love in their hearts, Altair? Perhaps bringing Holy Men and Women down a notch will elevate yourself, but it’s a fool’s errand, to my mind,

That said if it helps you, I’m happy to subscribe to your hypothesis. Yes every spiritual man and woman, those of grace and blessing, only reach this state because of medical induced starvation and malnutrition. Hopefully you will find more blogs to help you accede to this reality, and if you can’t, you can always create your own cultish beliefs, that’s one of the blessings of modern day technology. No one near feel alone again

Jl

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Altair

...
''As a species, we have been artificially inducing mystical experiences for as long as there are records of our behaviour. '' [from: http://www.humanreligions.info/hallucinations.html ]

That's such a ridiculous formulation: artificially inducing mystical experiences!

[Altair]

Originally Posted by janielee

Are you secretly jealous that there are so many who have found peace and love in their hearts, Altair? Perhaps bringing Holy Men and Women down a notch will elevate yourself, but it’s a fool’s errand, to my mind,

That said if it helps you, I’m happy to subscribe to your hypothesis. Yes every spiritual man and woman, those of grace and blessing, only reach this state because of medical induced starvation and malnutrition. Hopefully you will find more blogs to help you accede to this reality, and if you can’t, you can always create your own cultish beliefs, that’s one of the blessings of modern day technology. No one near feel alone again

Jl

I don't see how any of this contributes to the explorations made in this thread. You have more interest in personally attacking people you disagree with than with discussion.

Many religious traditions rely upon the words of various people that fasted for prolonged periods (starvation), 'locked themselves up' (deprivation) and lived on poor diets (malnourishment). These traditions may even today have sects or guru's continuing to preach the same lifestyles. Starvation, deprivation and malnourishment are known causes of hallucinations. If only you actually read my posts..

I would support a more modest approach to avoid lack of health, for clear health reasons, but possibly also to minimize inauthenticity.
Let me know when you can actually engage with reason and an open mind for exploration.

Originally Posted by inavalan

That's such a ridiculous formulation: artificially inducing mystical experiences!

Although it's not mine I would say it's an apt description, as some people consciously practice sense deprivation and prolonged fasts, with the goal of communion with 'divinity'. [Artificial: ''made or produced by humans''].

Originally Posted by inavalan

That's such a ridiculous formulation: artificially inducing mystical experiences!

I’m laughing so hard over here!!

Jl