Disproving Christianity

The following is an essay I wrote a couple years ago. I'm mostly posting it for Honza, who seems to be on this train of thought, but also for anyone else interested.

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PREMISES:
A) The Torah (Old Testament) is 100% true according to christian belief.
B) yeshka is claimed to have been the Messiah prophesied in The Torah.
C) yeshka is claimed to have been the son of/an incarnation of God.
D) the teachings of yeshka are claimed to apply to all of humanity.

Premise D is supposedly based on the veracity of B and/or C but this is not necessarily true. It can also be posited upon the belief that yeshka was not the messiah but rather a wise individual or possibly a prophet, thus I am stating it as a completely separate premise.

Furthermore, premise B on the surface seems to depend on premise A's validity but this is not necessarily the case. Though the concept of the Messiah originated from the Torah the concept exists independently of it.

I consider A, B,C and D to be the founding principles of christianity. In order for the religion to be proven false, however, only premises B, C and D will need to be refuted. To these ends I will rely on premise A to prove that one of the founding principles of christianity contradicts the other three. Once this has been accomplished a christian should have no choice but to deny one of these premises.

After careful analysis of the claims and counterproofs I have determined that I can successfully find counterproofs for premises B and C. For premise D, however, I can only prove scripturally that christian doctrines should not apply to Jews. Thus a non-jew may accept premise D with the exception of it not applying to Jews. Regarding the remaining premises, either A or (B and C) will need to be denied in order to maintain logical consistency.

ESCAPE ROUTES:

There are two escape routes which may be taken to avoid accepting this argument, neither of which I can disprove absolutely. They are (1) Faith and Belief is more important than logic and (2) all of the prophesies which apply to the Messiah will be fulfilled on yeshka's resurrection from the dead.

Regarding the first point - if a person is not interested in logical arguments then there is nothing logic can do to persuade such a person. If you truly believe that intuition is superior to logic and that your intuition tells you that christianity is true then there is nothing that can be done. I would have to ask, however, what your intuition tells you about logic.

Regarding the second point - this escape will be able to save one from denying most of the arguments against claim B (that yeshka was the Messiah) but not from denying the arguments against claim C (that yeshka was an incarnation of God). There is unfortunately no way to deny this escape route scripturally. I can merely point out that there is no scriptural support for a 'second coming' either and ask the christian if after seeing all the prophecies that exist in their accuracy and detail such a glaring omission in the original texts makes much sense.


DISPROVING CLAIM D: CHRISTIANITY AS A UNIVERSAL PATH

As stated above, I can only disprove this scripturally as applying to the Jews. To do this I will employ the following verses:

Malachi 3:6 “I, Hashem, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, you have not perished.”
Numbers 23:19 “G-d is not mortal that He should lie, nor a man that He should change His mind”.
Psalms 119:151-152 “Yet You are nearby, O Hashem, and all Your commandments are true. From the start I gained knowledge from Your testimonies, because You established them forever.”
Judges 2:1 “...I shall never annul My covenant with you.”
Leviticus 26:44-45 “...while they will be in the land of their enemies, I will not have been revolted by them nor will I have rejected them to obliterate them, to annul My covenant with them – for I am HaShem their G-d. I will remember for them the covenant of the ancients, those whom I have taken out of the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be G-d unto them – I am Hashem.”
Malachi 3:22 “Remember the Torah of Moses My servant, which I commanded him at Horeb for all of Israel – [its] decree and [its] statutes.”

As you can see, all of these verses clearly indicate that God's covenant with the people of Israel is eternal and immutable. Malachi 3:6 shows us that God does not change his mind. His people Israel are an eternal nation which will exist for all time. Numbers 23:19 tells us that God's word is immutable. Since He originally proclaimed all the laws and statutes of the Torah be kept by the children of Israel this proclamation must stand until this day. This theme is repeated in Judges 2:1 and Leviticus 26:44-45. Since He does not change His mind there is no possible way for this proclamation to be overturned. Thus, the children of Israel are still obligated to follow the original teachings given to them by God.

In several places, yeshka suggests 'alterations' to these original laws (ie. that it is permissible to eat all foods). Since the original laws are immutable for the children of Israel then these alterations cannot possibly apply to them. This is emphasised in Malachi 3:22 which states clearly that the children of Israel are to remember the teachings of Torah for all time.

Since yeshka originally came to lead the people of Israel, the fact that he preached that they stray from the path set out for them eternally should in and of itself be considered a proof against yeshka's credibility altogether. However there are ways to get around this simple and straightforward point so I will not use this as a final proof of yeshka's invalidity.



DISPROVING CLAIM C: YESHKA WAS AN INCARNATION OF GOD

This claim made by christians is disgusting and disgraceful and should be considered blasphemy against The Creator who is so high above His creation. God has not nor will ever incarnate in a physical form as this is an impossibility due to the rules which He Himself set out for reality.

For this argument I will cite the following verses:

Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear Israel, HaShem is our G-d, HaShem is One”
Deuteronomy 4:39 “Know this day, and lay it in your heart, that HaShem is G-d, in the heavens above and on the earth below, there is none else”
Jeremiah 25:24 “Do I not fill heaven and earth, says G-d”
Isaiah 6:3 “The whole earth is filled with His glory”
Psalms 145:3 “Great is G-d, highly praised, His greatness is unfathomable.”
Numbers 23:19 “G-d is not mortal that He should lie, nor a man that He should change His mind”.

God is One. His unity is unlike any 'lesser' form of unity which can be found within physical reality. His Unity and Oneness exist as perfect unity. To elaborate from the teachings of Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato, in this world we can find many things which are One because they are made up of many different parts. Man for example has hundreds of bones and organs which all fit together to make up a whole which is Man. God however has no parts as He is unlike anything from this world. Thus, He is One in complete unity and simplicity.

The fact of God's unity is mentioned several times in Torah, most notably in Deuteronomy 6:4.

Furthermore, God's Greatness exists in such a way that He encompasses the entire universe and fills it, as stated in Deuteronomy 4:39, Jeremiah 25:24, Isaiah 6:3 and many other places. Since the universe is contained within Him and the laws of existence which God set out prevent one thing from existing within itself, God will not manifest in our reality.

Numbers 23:19 tells us directly that God will never manifest. "God is not a mortal...", at the time this statement was written He was not a human being. "...nor a man that He should change His mind". If God later incarnated in mortal form He would essentially be changing His mind since He previously declared that He is not mortal. Thus this event will never occur.

Since God will never incarnate fully, both because it is inconsistent with the rules of existence which He created and because He told us explicitly that He never would, it is impossible for yeshka to have been an incarnation of God.


DISPROVING CLAIM B: YESHKA WAS THE MESSIAH

Finally, yeshka was not the Messiah prophesied within the Torah. In order to prove this fact I will avoid the usual vague verses which may or may not apply to the messiah which is to come or to the messianic age which is said to surround his coming. Instead I will only use verses which explicitly mention and describe this messianic figure. They are the following (paraphrased for brevity and clarity. Look inside your favourite version of the Torah for more details):

Isaiah 11:1-5 – Spirit of HaShem will rest upon him, he will be a perfect judge, he will defeat the wicked with “the rod of his mouth”, he will be righteous and faithful.
Isaiah 11:10 – “...nations will seek him...”
Isaiah 42:1-4 – Spirit of HaShem will rest upon him, bring justice to the nations, he will not preach but his words will be recognized as truth, he will be diligent in his work, the world will want to learn from him.
Jeremiah 23:5-6 – A righteous sprout, administer justice and righteousness, they will call him “HaShem Tzidkeinu” or “HaShem is our righteousness”.
Jeremiah 33:14-22 – as above, plus a guarantee of Davidic dynasty
Zecheriah 9:9-10 – Messiah will be humble, he will speak peace and rule the whole world.

The first thing to do is paint a picture of who the messiah will be and what he is to accomplish when he comes to this world. The short list of explicit prophecies gives us only an extremely vague figure of this person. Lets see if we can piece it together.

1) The messiah will possess the following character traits: Righteous, Faithful, Diligent and Humble.

2) He will also necessarily have a lineage which traces back to King David.

3) He will act as a judge

4) He will defeat the wicked with words

5) He will bring justice to nations

6) At some point rule the entire world.

7) Other nations will seek him out to learn from him and be judged before him.

Lets address these points.

1) It is difficult to judge the character of a man long dead so it will be very difficult to determine whether or not yeshka possessed these four character traits. They are also quite vague and subjective. Thus, this point is unarguable.

2) Lineage in Judaism is passed down from father to son. By christian accounts, yeshka had no father. Thus it is impossible for yeshka to be part of the davidic line and thus cannot be messiah based on this point and this point alone.

Even though point 2 should be enough to prove yeshka's exemption from the running of messiah-hood we will continue with the remaining points.

3) Yeshka acted as a judge on occasion though on several occasions he turned people away and refused to judge them. Still, there is enough to say that he fulfilled this prophecy.

4) During yeshka's lifetime he only turned very few people to his teachings, thus his words did not seem to defeat very much wickedness. Furthermore on several occasions yeshka turned to violence and not to diplomacy (ie. overturning the tables of money changers, withering a fig tree).

5) Yeshka was not active politically and did not contribute to increasing justice on a national level.

6) Yeshka did not at any point in his life rule over the entire world.

7) Nations did not seek out yeshka's teachings or judgement in his lifetime. In a few isolated cases individuals sought his aid, guidance or judgement but this never occurred at a national level.

It can clearly be seen that yeshka did not fulfill most of the explicitly mentioned prophecies which will apply to the messiah. Thus, it cannot be said that he was the messiah. All but point 2 can be explained away by employing the 'second coming' theory which, as stated above, has no scriptural basis.

Point 2 should, however, be considered a clear refutation of yeshka's candidacy for messiah-hood even in the face of the 'second coming' theory.


CONCLUSION:

It should be clear after reading this argument and verifying the sources that it is impossible for christianity to maintain all of its claims. The only recourse would be to deny one or all of these claims or resort to a denial of logic and the necessity for consistency in beliefs altogether.


BONUS: REFUTING CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES

As a bonus I would like to very briefly discuss certain christian doctrines which I feel need refuting. These are the following:

A) Yeshka is needed for repentance.
B) The performance of miracles were proof of yeshka's divinity.
C) God can only be approached through mediation by yeshka.
D) Sinners will be damned eternally unless they repent.

Point A is not true. God has already offered several paths of repentance within the Torah:
Jeremiah 36:3 “That every man shall return from his way, and I will forgive him.”
1 Kings 8:33-34 “If they return to You, and confess Your Name, and pray...then You will hear in Heaven and forgive their sin.”
Malachi 3:7 “...Return to Me and I will return to you...”

Point B is not true. Miracles may be proof of a higher power's involvement but not necessarily The Highest Power, and even if miracles are a result of The Highest Power's involvement, miracles themselves are not a proof that a messenger's words are true (see Deuteronomy 13 for details).

Point C is not true and is in fact forbidden (Exodus 20:3, Deuteronomy 4:16, ibid 5:5, ibid 5:7)

Point D has no scriptural basis whatsoever. There is no mention in the Torah of any kind of hell, damnation or punishment after death of any kind. I cannot refute this claim since there is no explicit mention of the afterlife in any form within Torah but I can say that the origins of this doctrine are not rooted in Judaism, which says that punishment after death exists but is temporary and acts as a cleansing process more than punishment for the sake of torture and suffering.

[Honza]

Hi Yamah,

Thankyou. It is too long for me to read right now, but I will come back to it when I'm more settled.

[psychoslice]

Yes I agree Yama, now let's disprove Judaism, and the rest of them.

1. Christians may see the Torah as 100% accurate but there is a belief in Christian supercession. This is sometimes viewed as triumphalism whereas Christianity is viewed as trumping Judaism. Much of the confusion around this involves the person formerly known as Saul of Tarsus who became Paul the Apostle. He was a part of a Jewish sect known as the Zealots. They were very judgmental and would take part in the stoning of those people who were seen as violating laws prescribed by Scripture. My research sets Paul on a mission to extend a less restrictive Judaism to the Gentile peoples in Europe. In his writings he does not denounce Judaism - he may call out other sects such as the narrow minded Pharisees as do other gospels, but he is very selective in his criticism. He calls for a circumcision of the heart as opposed to the traditional briss which casts Christianity into a different kind or aspect of Judaism - the emotional or merciful aspect to contrast with judgmental or severe aspect which Kabbalists have always recognized as the polarity between the Sefirot of Gevurah (Judgment) and Chesed (Loving Kindness). This is also the basis for the "old wine in new skins" analogy used in some of the gospels.

2. Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah. When people read Son of God - they misread his words that discuss his relationship to his Father God - not in sense of his own particularity but in the sense of his enlightened relationship to the Godhead in general - especially in the context of introducing the softer aspects of God that up until now were overshadowed by the harsher aspects.

3. Jews are determined by their Mother not their Father. As far as I've heard about this it is because of rapes that occurred in many instances where paternity cannot be proved (not that I believe or support the concept of immaculate conception - google Aquarian Gospel for insight).

4. The idea that a Messiah will come from the Root of Jesse that people believe to be David's son is found in Isaiah 11:1 and again is misinterpreted because the Hebrew is neglected. Jesse is Yisay - spelled Yud-Shin-Yud. The root letter is a Shin which means the eternal flame. See my post on this at oracle of the phoenix dotcom go to forum and go to Isaiah's Vision. David is also spelled Dalet-Vav-Dalet. Dalet means Door and Vav means connection so it's another way of saying Dor v' Dor or From generation to generation.

5. There is only one mention of a Messiah from my research and it's found in Isaiah 45:1 and reads:

מָתְנֵי מְלָכִים, אֲפַתֵּחַ--לִפְתֹּחַ לְפָנָיו דְּלָתַיִם, וּשְׁעָרִים לֹא יִסָּגֵרוּ. 1 Thus saith the LORD to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him, and to loose the loins of kings; to open the doors before him, and that the gates may not be shut:

The root word for Mesiach is present in the verse. I have a chapter in my book called Cyrus the Messiah which can be read at no charge on the same site I referenced above.

6. Many of the laws quoted were not necessarily prescribed in the Torah but were prescribed in the Talmud. Ruminants were an example of "Kosher" eating prescribed because these animals contain 3 stomachs which mirror the Kabbalistic Tree of Life's three oppositions at the levels of spirit, mind and emotion. Ruminating means to contemplate to let matters digest so to speak - to take nothing and swallow it at face value. To perform a ritual without any understanding of it's teaching is valueless in my opinion.

The other points made are well-founded and do show more of disinformation and confusion around the topic that refutes the notion that Jews just didn't get it But I have to say, that most organized religions have not quite retained the purity and intention of the original teachings they claim to adhere to.

Didn't copy the first line of the Hebrew
כֹּה-אָמַר יְהוָה, לִמְשִׁיחוֹ לְכוֹרֶשׁ אֲשֶׁר-הֶחֱזַקְתִּי בִימִינוֹ
לְרַד-לְפָנָיו גּוֹיִם,

Psychoslice: If you don't have anything constructive to say then please keep your snarky comments to yourself.

sbjazzman: Thank you for taking the time to respond. I will do likewise.

1) Certainly the Christians say their gospels supercede the Torah where there are contradictions/corrections/amendments but none will say that the Torah is wrong or false. In fact the only reason Christianity can exist is because of the foundation laid out through the Torah for the existance of a Messianic figure. Thus, the use of the Torah as a primary source material is perfectly valid.

2) I never said that yeshka claimed he was Messiah. It is, however, a claim of Christianity. I'm not out to disprove Christ - whether or not he existed and whether or not he was a good or wise person is moot. Christians believe him to be something that he clearly could not have been.

3) Whether or not a person is Jewish is determined by the mother. However, which tribe an individual belongs to is determined by the father. Spiritual Inheritences, such as eligibility for Priesthood (Cohen) is passed down through the father. eligibility for Kingship is the same.

4) I didn't use the 'root of Jesse' part of Isaiah 11:1. Jeremiah 33:15 clearly states that the righteous branch termed Messiah will be of the Davidic line.

5) The word 'Messiah' (Annointed One) is never used in Tanach to refer to the Messiah - it is a nickname given to the person which all of the prophecies indicate will appear. The verses I quoted were all those which I, through carefully combing the sources, have found explicitly stating that a person will exist which we can reference using the externally applied label 'Messiah'.

6) The laws regarding clean and unclean animals are clearly stated in Leviticus 11. The first rule mentioned is that kosher mammals must have cloven hooves and must chew their cud. No reason for this law is given in the Torah, Kabbalistic or otherwise, and such reasons have no impact on whether or not a Jew is obligated to follow a law. God said only eat Ruminants. Yeshka said eat anything you want. These two statements are clearly contradictory.

[psychoslice]

Yamah: Psychoslice: If you don't have anything constructive to say then please keep your snarky comments to yourself.

Excused me, did you have anything constructive to say about the Christians ?.

[quote=
4) I didn't use the 'root of Jesse' part of Isaiah 11:1. Jeremiah 33:15 clearly states that the righteous branch termed Messiah will be of the Davidic line.

5) The word 'Messiah' (Annointed One) is never used in Tanach to refer to the Messiah - it is a nickname given to the person which all of the prophecies indicate will appear. The verses I quoted were all those which I, through carefully combing the sources, have found explicitly stating that a person will exist which we can reference using the externally applied label 'Messiah'.

6) The laws regarding clean and unclean animals are clearly stated in Leviticus 11. The first rule mentioned is that kosher mammals must have cloven hooves and must chew their cud. No reason for this law is given in the Torah, Kabbalistic or otherwise, and such reasons have no impact on whether or not a Jew is obligated to follow a law. God said only eat Ruminants. Yeshka said eat anything you want. These two statements are clearly contradictory.[/QUOTE]

Jeremiah does not mention the work Meshiach which Isaiah clearly does. It means "anointed one" I can't post links since I'm a newbie but look at Jewish Messianism in Wikipedia for the extensive use of the term in the Talmud. It is not a nickname. If you reference my book you will see why I attribute Messiah to Cyrus who's Hebrew name is Koresh.

A debate on Orthodox points of view on obligation is beyond the scope of this thread and can only end in a circular argument as my opinion strongly supports the notion of Jesus as the first Reform Jew we can actually point to (although he firmly states his adherence to the 10 Commandments and to what he perceives to truly be Jewish Law (perhaps referencing the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law - which we all know is impossible due to absence of vowels in the Torah which opens up all text to interpretation) - specifically Rabbinical interpretation.

[Honza]

Originally Posted by psychoslice

Yamah: Psychoslice: If you don't have anything constructive to say then please keep your snarky comments to yourself.

Excused me, did you have anything constructive to say about the Christians ?.

Yes he did. As soon as anyone talks about religion you butt in with your snarky comments. Just goes to show how practicing I AM affects ones brain.....

[psychoslice]

Originally Posted by Honza

Yes he did. As soon as anyone talks about religion you butt in with your snarky comments. Just goes to show how practicing I AM affects ones brain.....

Yep, tell you the truth I would like to hit their heads together, they both don't hold the truth, they should wake up to themselves.