The elephant in the room.

[Pagandell]

Originally Posted by Altair

As for alcohol, it does more harm than good, It's another cheap ticket to pleasure not anything pure or genuine or that requires true work and effort.

Oh yeah, and how are you so sure mister smarty pants, has god told you.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Pagandell

Oh yeah, and how are you so sure mister smarty pants, has god told you.

In a manner of speaking.. yes.. God told me..

I am trying to grow spiritually and I'm increasingly aware of what is and what isn't harmful to my system. Alcohol, quite simply, is not conducive to spiritual growth. As Debrah pointed out, it kills a lot of good bacteria, and a central part of spirituality, to the best of my understanding, is that a healthy body is very important. The body is the temple of God. Second, I would add that alcohol also leads to a failure of self control. Even if you won't become violent or say rude things you're still going to lose control. This too, is not conducive to spiritual growth, just as other fancy products that induce different states of mind. To dull the senses (or create more stress through other food and drink) is not the way to God, otherwise people would have been enlightened by simply being drunk or in coma. It's not about dulling the senses, it's about control and genuine transformation..

[Pagandell]

Originally Posted by Altair

In a manner of speaking.. yes.. God told me..

I am trying to grow spiritually and I'm increasingly aware of what is and what isn't harmful to my system. Alcohol, quite simply, is not conducive to spiritual growth. As Debrah pointed out, it kills a lot of good bacteria, and a central part of spirituality, to the best of my understanding, is that a healthy body is very important. The body is the temple of God. Second, I would add that alcohol also leads to a failure of self control. Even if you won't become violent or say rude things you're still going to lose control. This too, is not conducive to spiritual growth, just as other fancy products that induce different states of mind. To dull the senses (or create more stress through other food and drink) is not the way to God, otherwise people would have been enlightened by simply being drunk or in coma. It's not about dulling the senses, it's about control and genuine transformation..

You are not answering my post.

Any way as you seem to wont to push your dogma, this being my thread I feel a need to reply.

You are really coming across as being preachy, lost in your own arrogance of what is right or wrong.

What if some one has say really bad mental health problems and needs to self medicate because modern med's have to much bad side affects for instance.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Pagandell

You are not answering my post.

Any way as you seem to wont to push your dogma, this being my thread I feel a need to reply.

You are really coming across as being preachy, lost in your own arrogance of what is right or wrong.

What if some one has say really bad mental health problems and needs to self medicate because modern med's have to much bad side affects

I answered to the best of my capabilities. What I was doing is sharing my observation, but it's also pretty much verifiable and it's nothing shocking and the knowledge and connection has been around for thousands of years..

Anyway.. I won't stop other people from buying alcohol. Do as you please. There's no point in abstinence (drinking, smoking, casual sex, certain foods) unless you've come to a realization you don't need it and it isn't helpful. That's what many religions don't get..

[Pagandell]

Originally Posted by Altair

That's what many religions don't get..

I'm a bit confused as to this last statement in relation to what you are saying, I thought religions of the control system were against turning on like you are.

[Sapphirez]

I think you should have perhaps named this thread "The dead elephant in the room" or "The dead cut-up rotting cadaver of an elephant in the room"


anyways, I am with you that it's baffling how limited the consciousness and consideration a person can have about eating or even murdering an animal.. it makes no sense to justify the senseless killing, or the consumption of it which creates very toxic acid states in the body. that being said, while I could never eat meat again, the thought of a steak or fried chicken doesn't automatically repel me the first second. (the smell of cooking meat doesn't always but usually makes me feel yucky) but if I bring more presence and mindfulness to the idea of the dead animal's meat it overwhelms and frightens me, it's just tragic that animals are killed to be eaten by foolish people who also mostly have no idea that eating that death is contributing to their own death and suffering.


On another note, this is a long thread so I am not sure where alcohol was initially brought up, but I want to comment on that too. I think that I can relate to both sides, and I do have more curiosity about some facts about alcohol, but overall I think it is almost as senseless as eating dead animals. There are numerous reasons.


Alcohol does sometimes seem to have positive effects, but while I don't understand that completely, part of it has to do with the unconsciousness that alcohol imparts. I think it disconnects us from our self in a way that seems positive, but is actually fake and of course having deteriorating damaging effects in the process. You see I drank alcohol from the age of 14 til about 30 I think. I am 34 now, and I've lost count of the years lol but it's been a few. except in the last two months I started drinking some again. yes I went 4 or maybe 5 years without drinking, and planned to probably never drink again.. but in weakness and curiosity, and despair from something that happened, I decided to try it again and see what I thought all the hype was about way back when I used to use it to deal with my problems.

Before I quit drinking, I was using it to socialize, even with family members. because I had terrible anxiety since I've been young, and alcohol is the only thing that seemed to stop it. however I was also put on antidepressants at 14, which I struggled to get off of and kept going back on and off again, for about a decade til I finally got off of them for the last time at 24. well little did I know that the antidepressants and the alcohol were damaging my body and brain so much, and that the anti depressants actually may make people crave alcohol!
Anyways, in more recent years I didn't have that active of a social life anymore or a party best friend like I usually used to, so I'd just drink if I was going to hang out with a friend or attend a family gathering, which I didn't do most of the time anymore.. I still used alcohol as a crutch, yet I didn't feel up to going to extended family Christmases or reunions, and one of the last times I went to a family barbecue I remember that I crouched down by the food and beverage tables and was overcome with anxiety and fear of simply being there and the prospect of having to interact with people. and I drank beforehand too.. with my immediate family like siblings the anxiety wasn't as bad, but still I have it with everyone.


well I saw that self-medicating with alcohol wasn't working too well anymore, and since I was young I would always get vicious horrendous hangovers! and that increased the anxiety a trillion-fold! So if I was living or hanging out with a friend or friends I would have to start drinking early to try and get rid of it. I am so glad I don't live like that anymore. I did drink alone sometimes, but not usually. I had a social life on facebook and in a game online when I didn't have best friends anymore so once in a while I would drink while socializing with them online. anyways, I knew I wanted to stop drinking alcohol because it was hurting me and not ever going to solve my problems or the root of them.


Surprisingly, one of the things that motivated me most to muster the courage to quit drinking, was a teacher at the technical college I was going to. He taught some Sociology class, but had connection with Alanon and one day he gave us a presentation on the chalkboard that I wish I could replicate. Him teaching us about what alcohol actually does to the body helped me realize the truth and use it to inspire myself to stop drinking sooner than later. He gave us this scenario of a time decades ago, when they used to use Ether on patients in hospitals to make them unconscious. He went through step by step what was happening to this organ and that, and the brain and bodily systems and so on.. and it was very sobering. as well as astonishing, though I wanted to think that we're all already aware of what terrible things alcohol does, but I really don't think most are.

So Pagandell I encourage you to research what alcohol does to the body and brain. and what that likely does to the being.. some say that they call alcohol spirits because it deafens our own and allows other spirits to more easily take over us.. I'm not sure, but I do know that while sometimes it makes people happy and carefree, it also has the potential to make people mean and violent and evil. Actually my dad was an alcoholic, and he died at 55 a few years ago. but he quit alcohol in the last year or two of his life cuz it was too much work to get drunk anymore, he drank beer, but also he had a fiance who was also an alcoholic on vodka, and she died from an overdose! Anyways, my dad had both of his legs amputated throughout the years, getting more and more cut off until he was only left with little stumps.. very sad. and I was glad to get to know him as a more gentle person near the end of his life, and he was a cool guy despite anything else, but he was a cruel abusive person to my mom when they were together before she left him when we were still children.

And his dad was an alcoholic too, and abused him and his brothers, and also abused me.. Both my brother and sister now still drink, though they are more successful with their careers and such than me.. and very smart and great people, yet they are not as open spiritually and informed about some important things like I am.. but anyways it's no contest, just mentioning the fact that I'm the only one of my siblings that has been able to abstain from alcohol. My mom likes to party sometimes but most of her drinking days are over.
anyway, since I was 14 I had trouble controlling my drinking and especially because of the antidepressants I would black out and often be a nuisance. yet at the same time I felt that drinking alcohol made me cooler and was the only way I could comfortably socialize. but you know I had to be at the 'perfect' level of alcohol to get this effect, and of course the next day was a sad disaster and so painful.. one of the things that helped me to want to quit most was understanding how bad alcohol is for the kidneys, and I think mine have been weak and a problem for me since I was young because I was hospitalized for kidney & bladder infections when I was a kid. and then I was put on antidepressants and started drinking and other drugs, and eating all sorts of stupid foods, and I never really healed, and I was never going to be able to heal if I kept bringing my body down by drinking. and my brain wouldn't stop producing anxiety and uncomfortable states if I kept poisoning it too.


In actuality it is not usually just one organ that is an issue for someone, because the whole body is connected. I've also heard it theorized that the kidney and adrenal glands which sit atop them, are the organs most closely related to conditions of anxiety though. which is interesting. the liver is connected to anger, which may help explain why alcohol makes people extra angry and scary sometimes.. but it is not just the liver that suffers when alcohol is consumed.


So Pagandell I saw you mentioned something about mental illness and drinking alcohol to deal with that. and that you don't tolerate or want to take mainstream medicine psychiatric prescriptions. that is a very good choice. and if I had to choose I would say drinking is definitely better than prescriptions especially ones made to mess with your brain. but that doesn't mean it's good. It is just toxifying and damaging your brain and body more and more sweetie and what you need is healing. Only nature and following your own nature can offer true healing. You bring up alcohol being of nature, but the thing is it is a toxic form of nature, that is too far deviated from nature to be good or overall beneficial anymore. when nature is messed with, it creates poison, and it messes with our nature. That makes sense, right? because we are nature, if we consume nature that has been violated or compromised, the same ill effect results in our natural bodies.

I'm not sure about what exactly Jesus meant, but maybe as with many things in the bible it was more metaphorical, and perhaps turning water into wine signified how he blessed water to be holy and it had a more positive profound effect on people. I also don't think he meant fish to be eating actual dead fish flesh, but that's another story. It's awesome how people like Masaru Emoto have proven that water is transformable and "that human consciousness has an effect on the molecular structure of water." and we can either impart beautiful harmonic designs, or create discordant designs. well sound has this effect too, but so does human thought and that is just amazing to me. So it is entirely possible Jesus was speaking of something more scientific yet esoteric like this when describing the water as wine, capable of 'merry-making' as wine is, but then it wouldn't have the ill effects of a hangover and toxicity that actual alcohol does. Not that I put much stock into the bible anyway, no offense.. it is a complicated topic and tome that has been highjacked by many and certain books removed and modified, etc.. and a lot of it must be metaphorical rather than literal, though also applicable to the times it was written if not to be interpreted in a more esoteric way


If you want we can discover more truth about what alcohol does to the body together.. and possible alternatives like herbs and foods that will be able to have an effect on your emotions and calm your mind while also helping repair the body instead of damage it.. Nobody should suffer and I understand your wanting to alleviate that with alcohol consumption, but unfortunately it is not going to save you at the end of the day.. *hugs*

[Pagandell]

Dear Sapphirez.

Thanks for your feed back/ words, I have no problem with having a drink, I enjoy it
I see nothing wrong with trying out the physical world and its magic plants before we transition on to the spiritual world

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Baile

You feel a soul-spirit connection is why. The "elephant" is that until one has experienced this soul-epiphany, it is impossible to understand why and how you could say that, you just sound overly-dramatic otherwise.

It just sounds like an appeal to fallacy to validate of delusions of grandure within the context of dietary preference, and the implicit strawman is, me saying that means I haven't had the 'soul epiphany', which makes me void of credibility.

People generally think of animals and nature forms as subservient to humans, and in the worst cases something to exploit. Then the human being comes to see animals and nature forms as our wards.

That's what the Bible teaches in Genesis.

Animals and nature forms are in need of humanity's love, empathy and conscious care. They are in essence trapped in humanity's karmic story. They are victims in a sense of our need to incarnate in physical form. And when one comes to understand that, that's when one becomes a vegetarian. Because it's disgusting otherwise. It's as repulsive as the thought of eating another human being; eating an enslaved human being, to be even more exact.

This is the day when the fairy kind [nature]
Sit weeping alone for their hopeless lot...
For the children of clay [human beings] was salvation bought
But not for the forms of sea and air.

This is a snippet from the Walter Scott poem that woke me up in my soul regarding the truth about the human race's spiritual and karmic responsibility to nature. I have weeped tears, several times, reading that poem over the years.

One has to be wary of their dogmatic tendencies, and avoid distorting their their own views into 'the view of the divine', so to speak. If you have reason for your ethical values and the conviction to live by them, that is indeed commendable, but the humility of being but men needs a place. I also wonder who put "[nature]" in square brackets where the poem says "fairy kind". Great verse none-the-less.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Baile

Perfectly appropriate -- even critically important, especially these days -- to call out and trash manipulative dishonesty when it rears its head: posting on a spiritual site, claiming it's a "spiritual philosophy" to kill animals while gleefully celebrating hunting season; people justifying cheating on their spouse and having an affair with their supposed TF because it's a "spiritual relationship".

It's fine that Deborah disagrees and gives her reasons for doing so, which isn't actually trashing, though perhaps the 'ego' jab was borderline, but its negligible and not typical. Implying dishonesty, manipulation and equating L1's spiritual philosophy with cheating on a spouse is beyond trashing; it's an appalling insult. Lucky1 has explained how he incorporates spirituality into the hunt living in a close, sustainable relationship with the land and the species. People might find that difficult to understand, and even if they do understand, they might not not be able to reconcile it with their own contrary values and views - but that doesn't justify insulting him.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Baile

Okay, thanks for that. I'm pretty relaxed BTW, I just despise blatant and wilful dishonesty. It happens all the time in spiritual forums: materialists and sceptics join the forum and pass themselves off as "alternative" thinkers. Or gun-lovers and hunters posting in the Vegan forum offering an "alternative" view on killing animals. I don't stay quiet when I see deceptive nonsense of that sort, is all.

This post is incongruent, and it paints people in a poor light. That makes me suspicious.