encouraging accidental suicide

Originally Posted by Occultist

So anyone who is in a trauma and is sick and depressed and wants to die we should kill?

No. That would be making the choice for them, instead of them choosing to do it on their own. But even still, it all depends on the severity of the individual situation. Some people actually can be talked out of it, or even nurtured back to health. But, as much as I hate to say it, there really are some people out there, who just really don't want to endure a life that they can't stand anymore, hence why people actually do commit suicide. Sure, we can always do everything humanly possible to try helping them, or making them get well again. Or even lock them up in prison for a year, apparently. But in the end, if a person is bound and determined to end their own life, I guarantee you, they will find a way to do it, no matter how anyone else feels about it. And no, I am not condoning them doing that.

Have you ever wondered if those people you saw jumping, would have still jumped anyway, even if there weren't a bunch of people chanting "Jump!"?

Originally Posted by Occultist

Also you said animals commit suicide? Really? I have never seen a suicidal animal.

-sigh- No, animals do not commit suicide. But people sure are willing to have their pets euthanized by lethal injection instead of subjecting them to a slow and painful death from either fatal injury, fatal illness or plan old, old age. Even worse yet, because no person stepped forward to adopt the animal before their alloted time at the pound or shelter was up.

I was merely pointing out the difference in how a hospital would rather let a person slowly starve to death, that they knew was never going to recover. Just so they could have a clean conscious by forcing the person into a position where they would slowly die on their own. Instead of making it a quick painless transition, once the hospital decide it was time to make that person die. And how a veterinary hospital would rather prevent the slower suffering of an animal that they knew was not going to recover, by hurrying up the process with no more suffering involved then what they may have already been doin.

So, if a hospital or the family has already made the call, that they were going to make that person die now. Why is it so much better to prolong that forced death, then to offer a quicker alternative to that same forced death situation? Yes, even that question has no "one size fits all" answer, because it all depends on the individual perspectives of every one involved with each and every particular situation.

Originally Posted by Occultist

Killing people is not a joy and happiness thing. Why are you so determined to help someone murder themselves then stand up and say you do have the right to live or die.

You're right, killing people isn't a joy and happiness thing. I sure as hell wouldn't get any joy or happiness out of it. Do you honestly think that I would? It is a very sad, gut wrenching, heart breaking thing. And I do believe I've already specified the only type of situation where I would even be a part of something like that. And yes, it would have to involve the utmost, absolutely dire circumstances which involved situations so beyond any form of control, that death was already inevitable. Should I just sit back and let a person in that position slowly, agonizingly, begging for mercy, die right before my eyes, and just hope and pray that it won't be too much longer before they finally do die, because they were beyond saving?

Why do you insist that I'm so determined to help someone kill them self? Do you think that I would want to be right there in the middle of it all, so I could get some kind of joyous happy kick out of it? Am I now to be considered on the same level as those people who said "Jump!" and then point and laugh after they did?

As much as I don't like the idea of people going around killing themselves, I also don't like the idea of forcing someone to live when every fiber in their being does not want to live, regardless of how much everyone else around them is forcing them to live a lie, just so everyone else can be happy with them.

But I suppose I have a hard time distinguishing the topic of suicide and the lack of rights to kill oneself, and the topic of abortion, where women do have the right to kill their unborn child if they so wish. So, women have the right to kill a future person simply because that future person reside in the woman's body. But people do not have the right to kill their own body if they wish, go figure. By the way, I'm still not pro suicide, but comparing the two does make one have to think about the irony.

Originally Posted by Occultist

IMO if someone in a hospice wanted to starve my sister I would have tube fed her and nurished her.

Well I'm very glad you feel that way. But what happens when the person who wants to feed and nourish a terminally ill person is not the legal guardian and has no rights to be able to go against the person who is in charge of the matter?

Originally Posted by Trieah

But I suppose I have a hard time distinguishing the topic of suicide and the lack of rights to kill oneself, and the topic of abortion, where women do have the right to kill their unborn child if they so wish.

This thread was not created to discuss 'suicide', 'Rights to kill oneself or your latest offering 'rights to kill your unborn child'.

After extensive questions to better understand you and to some point try to relate to your point of view, I have to agree with Occultist that this is the wrong podium for you and that you are not helping your cause standing opposite others that are trying to save innocent lives. I dont follow religious doctrine although i do follow the dogmatic principles of the law, which his my choice and one that i choose to reserve on this issue.

I have submitted a request for the administration to consider providing a sticky topic in spiritual threads, especially the death and afterlife section that would give general information where those that are considering suicide or ending life prematurley, so they can get professional qualified help within their local medical health community.

Also a precautionary sticky topics for members to consider before undertaking the act of counselling, inciting or aiding and abeting a person "toward" ending their life prematurely. This being suggested so that members can carry their accountability of real life in with them while posting their opinions and advice within this website and forums.

Originally Posted by res

This thread was based on a lot of threads not jus t one. i dont know why you keep repeating yourself when starskye clarified the context of her thread and i have no issue with starskye but if you want me to highlight statements that did concern me iil be glad to meet you both in that thread. this thread is about prevention and if you are opposed to that have your say here by all means

I was responding to Trieah's question (as indicated in the quote )--since no one else did.

Peace and Love on your path to forming your own opinions...

Blessed be...

Originally Posted by res

This thread was not created to discuss 'suicide', 'Rights to kill oneself or your latest offering 'rights to kill your unborn child'.

This is true, but neither did you hold yourself within the boundries that you wanted for this tread or maybe not explain it well enough to start with, so at this point I think it is futile to argue against what this tread has become. IMO Trieah actually agrees alot but the thing I see her trying to do, is trying to open people up to a larger perspective that is not just yes or no. I could be wrong and I am sure Trieah will tell me if I am.

So Res if you just looked for people to agree with you, you have found them and then I see no reason for the rest of us to try to climb your mountain. If you are looking to broaden your view then let us continue. IMO I get sad when people cannot see the beauty in everything or at least try to do so.

Thanks deramweaver. i have left the boundaries to consider trieahs perspective and gave it due consideration. i am at the point where i agree to disagree and would like to get the thread back on topic is all. If anyone wants to discuss rights to die, abortion or legislation all means start a fresh thread and invite me over.

Originally Posted by res

This thread was not created to discuss 'suicide', 'Rights to kill oneself or your latest offering 'rights to kill your unborn child'.

After extensive questions to better understand you and to some point try to relate to your point of view, I have to agree with Occultist that this is the wrong podium for you and that you are not helping your cause standing opposite others that are trying to save innocent lives. I dont follow religious doctrine although i do follow the dogmatic principles of the law, which his my choice and one that i choose to reserve on this issue.

I have submitted a request for the administration to consider providing a sticky topic in spiritual threads, especially the death and afterlife section that would give general information where those that are considering suicide or ending life prematurley, so they can get professional qualified help within their local medical health community.

Also a precautionary sticky topics for members to consider before undertaking the act of counselling, inciting or aiding and abeting a person "toward" ending their life prematurely. This being suggested so that members can carry their accountability of real life in with them while posting their opinions and advice within this website and forums.

I have not. I do not. I will not. And nor do I have any intention of doing so in the future, engage in the act of encouraging anyone on this message board to commit suicide. Please kindly refrain from insinuating that I am standing opposite from people who are trying to save innocent lives. Especially after so many times I have stated that I would do everything within my power to also help save innocent lives. Just because I do believe there are extreme rare circumstances which could prove to be outside the general consensus on the issue, does not mean that I am completely against saving innocent people's lives.

Please try to remember that I was not the one who originally introduced the subject of whether or not a person has the right to end their own life. Nor was I the person who posted what the laws of various countries and states have to say about it. If it was not the intention of this topic to discus whether or not people have that right, then perhaps that point should have been addressed at the start of that particular turn in the discussion, instead of encouraging someone to express their views on that particular topic.

If the topic of "encouraging accidental suicide" was not intended to discus the topic of suicide, then no one should have been able to express their views on suicide, regardless of how they view the subject. Perhaps next time, instead of creating a topic where people could express themselves on what ever avenues a particular topic might take, you should consider making a poll with limited answers that people had to choose from. And then ask for people to not add any further comment to the topic, as a way of keeping the topic from spilling over into any and all avenues about that topic, other then the one specific avenue you wish to discus.

If this is the wrong podium to express one's views. Then it is also the wrong podium to extensively question another person about their views. Perhaps next time, instead of encouraging, questioning, misinterpreting, and insinuating false ideas about that person's views, to the point to where that person feels they have to defend their position against said false insinuations, and may even expand upon their views in a further attempt at being understood. Then, I would suggest not encouraging that type of activity inside the very podium one wishes to stay on a single track path. Instead, perhaps you should consider taking the extensive questioning to better understand a person's view, into a more private conversation. That way you could avoid insinuating to others that the person who has slightly different views then yourself, is indeed completely against everything you wish to accomplish about such a controversial topic.

I had actually been wanting to give you some other pertinent information to help with your cause. But unfortunately, lately I've been having to exhaustedly defend myself too much against the very type of misunderstandings which I voiced my concerns about in the beginning. Perhaps my biggest crime is that I should not have allowed you or others to goat me into expressing my personal views, since this is such a controversial topic to begin with. But then again, no one held a gun to my head forcing me to respond. So I'm not exactly blaming anyone for making me speak my peace.

I do know of a really good place where abused, neglected and suicidal persons can reach out to others who know exactly what they are going through. Because all the other members are now, or have been in the same types of positions. This particular message board is solely designed to help people cope with their issues in a positive, safe manner, amongst people who truly understand what they are going through.

Because of the sensitive nature of the topics brought up to help people, this is a closed message board to the general public. The reason being, is so no outsider can come along and goat, taunt or tease any of the members who are already in such a state of emotional distress. One can only gain access to this message board by approval from the administration.

In your campaign to provide services to those in need of help, I had planned on advising you to ask permission from the administration here, to include this message board in what ever sticky topic may be provided to find help.Perhaps you can still do that.

But, there is one small hitch. It seems my membership to that board has expired, since it's been many years since I was an active member, and I had to request to be reinstated. I have not received my permission to rejoin as of yet. So I don't know yet if this board is still as active as it used to be years ago. As soon as I can validate that this place is still an active resource for finding help, I will let you know the name of the board.

IMO Trieah actually agrees alot but the thing I see her trying to do, is trying to open people up to a larger perspective that is not just yes or no. I could be wrong and I am sure Trieah will tell me if I am.

Thank you You were very spot on in your assessment of what I was trying to do.

Thank you my friend

Originally Posted by Trieah

I have not. I do not. I will not. And nor do I have any intention of doing so in the future, engage in the act of encouraging anyone on this message board to commit suicide. Please kindly refrain from insinuating that I am standing opposite from people who are trying to save innocent lives.

I dont doubt that but it would be courtious to ask me if i was referring to you and what was meant by the remark before making accusations.

Originally Posted by Trieah

Please try to remember that I was not the one who originally introduced the subject of whether or not a person has the right to end their own life. Nor was I the person who posted what the laws of various countries and states have to say about it.

The laws are directly relevant to the issue of Encouraging suicide and they support the bigger picture and help us to understand that we are accountable in this spiritual forum to the same degree as we are accountable outside in the real world.

Originally Posted by Trieah

If it was not the intention of this topic to discus whether or not people have that right, then perhaps that point should have been addressed at the start of that particular turn in the discussion, instead of encouraging someone to express their views on that particular topic.

It was to discuss if people have the right to counsel members toward ending their life prematurely but somehow it took off on a tanget which led it to where it is and i agree with him it is futile to further discuss this wayward thread, hence my attempt to get it back on topic

Originally Posted by Trieah

If the topic of "encouraging accidental suicide" was not intended to discus the topic of suicide, then no one should have been able to express their views on suicide, regardless of how they view the subject. Perhaps next time, instead of creating a topic where people could express themselves on what ever avenues a particular topic might take, you should consider making a poll with limited answers that people had to choose from. And then ask for people to not add any further comment to the topic, as a way of keeping the topic from spilling over into any and all avenues about that topic, other then the one specific avenue you wish to discus.

Thank you for your advice

[quote=Trieah] If this is the wrong podium to express one's views. Then it is also the wrong podium to extensively question another person about their views. Perhaps next time, instead of encouraging, questioning, misinterpreting, and insinuating false ideas about that person's views, to the point to where that person feels they have to defend their position against said false insinuations, and may even expand upon their views in a further attempt at being understood. Then, I would suggest not encouraging that type of activity inside the very podium one wishes to stay on a single track path. Instead, perhaps you should consider taking the extensive questioning to better understand a person's view, into a more private conversation. That way you could avoid insinuating to others that the person who has slightly different views then yourself, is indeed completely against everything you wish to accomplish about such a controversial topic.[quote]

Again if you are unsure of what i mean by what i say aks me and i will elaborate before making accusations. you wanted to be heard and i wanted to understand you. Thats all good and fine though if i reach a point that i have to agree to dissagree then then no amount of leading me to water is going to make me drink. At some stage this discussion became a debate and not only with me. Others have understood your words the same way i have, so maybe the blame is not fully with me.

The point that it became a debate for me is your hypothetical road side accident victim. Because of my emotional entry to this thread( that i have apologised for) and that it is sad enough already i have refrained form mentioning this but it may help you understand why it became a debate for me. It does have a happy ending!

Some years ago my nephew was found in scrub a short distance from the road in the dark. Lets jusy say he knew how to end it and done it twice to be sure. A passer by stumbled over him and called the paramedics as he was without a doubt going to die within minutes. The paramedics arrived before he bled to death. My nephew to this day is happy that he had a second chance at life due to this passerby. If the passer by had of taken just 10 seconds to consider if it was my nephews right to die could have meant the difference between having the opportunity to get through his dark issues and his vital fuild running out.
If i were the passer in your very similar hypothetical scenario i would fight to the point of beating on the chest of the person to keep them alive long enough for trained paramedics to arrive and correctly assess the situation as they are qualified to do. At no point would i assume the position to consider giving up on someone elses life because they calmly said "let me go". For this reason i have no choice but to feel opposed to your statement in this instance. Each to their own. I intrepreted your words to mean you actually had a final say on if the person died. Its one thing to say "i bless you on your travels" and another for the victim to ask your permission to let them die and for you to give your ok and not beat their chest black and blue until qualified help arrives, even if you assume its not coming. Im sure this is what they mean when they say it is only gods decision who's soul he takes, after all who would want to shoulder that responsibility...not me. I admit it is very romantic in movies but i do question if sensationalising drama and romantic spiritual ideas in media is really a good idea or if it is a form of indirect encouragement itself but lets keep that for another thread hey. Thats how i feel and i ask that you please accept that we have differing opinions.

[quote=Trieah]I had actually been wanting to give you some other pertinent information to help with your cause. But unfortunately, lately I've been having to exhaustedly defend myself too much against the very type of misunderstandings which I voiced my concerns about in the beginning. Perhaps my biggest crime is that I should not have allowed you or others to goat me into expressing my personal views, since this is such a controversial topic to begin with. But then again, no one held a gun to my head forcing me to respond. So I'm not exactly blaming anyone for making me speak my peace.[quote=Trieah]

Im sorry you feel that way and thanks for the suggestion. Would you mind making the suggestion directly to the admin as i have already acted and you should take the credit for your selfless idea.

I agree with you that all the issues raised here are very sensitive in nature and deserve to be heard individually to be given complete focussed consideration. If i understand Occultist correctly we are both feeling that you would benefit from addressing your issues in a seperate thread. You seem very passionate about them and i am sure that there are people that would love to face your podium in support of your causes and you deserve to be heard.

From my point of view expressing 'peoples rights to end life early' in a thread of members trying to 'prevent people from encouraging ending life early' is sort of like a demon walking in to a church and arguing for satans rights to collect souls. Im sure the demon wouldnt be expecting a cuppa and cookies and im not insinuating you are a demon at all as this example works from all peoples perspectives when fighting for a cause.

I am sure you are a good person trieah, you are a member of this site, clearly have a lot friends and are well respected but i cant help feeling that you are being done an injustice by having your rights to end life early related issues addressed in the context of this thread.

Its clear you do not condone counselling others toward ending their life early and i am sorry if i have misinterpreted your choice of words.

[Dragonfly1]

Attention seeker much trieah...as usual.......can't you just for once not make everything about you.....you have taken res's thread completely out of the context it was originally written. If you don't like the subject matter, you are free to bypass it, or have your say and be done, don't keep on and on and on and on.....its tiring and quite frankly, boring.......

Originally Posted by res

It was to discuss if people have the right to counsel members toward ending their life prematurely but somehow it took off on a tanget which led it to where it is and i agree with him it is futile to further discuss this wayward thread, hence my attempt to get it back on topic

And perhaps it would not have gone off on a tangent if you had not been questioning me or encouraging me to explain why I believed that there were indeed very rare instances. Please know that I am not blaming you for that, we each consented to engage in that way. Yes, it is a futile argument. I do actually agree with that as well.

But even if the original argument is futile, do we each forfeit our right to clear up the particular misunderstanding that have been insinuated about each of us? Considering that we're both still trying to clear up the misunderstands between each other even now, I'm going to assume that it is alright to still take the time to do so. I accept your apologies. And I offer you my own apologies.

I do understand you explanation about your nephew. And I am sorry that your family had to go through that ordeal in the first place. I am happy the ordeal did have a happy ending. In my own example, I was thinking of a far more dire situation, with no possible way to even get help for hours, or even days, if any at all was even coming in the first place.

While yes, I do understand your concerns over the romanticizing of such situations. Though, as a psychic medium, I do have to take into consideration that I actually have come across the spirits of many souls who had not crossed over into the Light at the time of their death because their fears, beliefs and mental state of mind refused to let them know that they did have every right to cross over into the Light, instead of wallowing/struggling in their self created personal Hell. I did come across one ghost who had been struggling inside a hangman's noose for many years. Time completely stood still for her once she actually died. But her spirit was still trying to fight for her life, hoping and praying that if she just held on long enough, someone would find her in time. I've had many encounters such as that, and it does pain me greatly to see these souls so lost in their own fear that they can't even move on in the afterlife. And to be honest, a lot of suicide victims do not cross over into the Light right away, simply because their state of mind was not at rest.

Originally Posted by res

I agree with you that all the issues raised here are very sensitive in nature and deserve to be heard individually to be given complete focussed consideration. If i understand Occultist correctly we are both feeling that you would benefit from addressing your issues in a seperate thread. You seem very passionate about them and i am sure that there are people that would love to face your podium in support of your causes and you deserve to be heard.

While I thank you for the offer to start up my own thread on these different issues, I'd much rather decline. Just saying what I have said in this thread has already taken an exhaustingly emotional toll on me already. I simply don't have the energy to focus so much on all the more painful situations in life that I am passionate about. But, if I look on the bright side of winding up in such a depressed mood from participating in this thread, at least it lowers my vibrations enough to where I can once again get close enough to other lost souls just waiting for someone to help lift them up out of their darkness. If I can help them out, then I don't really mind my own dismal mood swings.

When I can find the time, I will research some more sites where people in need of counseling can go to get help.