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  #21  
Old 03-08-2019, 07:20 AM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honza
Thank you BJ. That is very interesting. We have had conversations in this section before about what Yahweh actually means and how it can be translated. There is no clear answer.

The common answer is I AM THAT I AM. But it is a very loose interpretation.

Back in the 90's I had an embroidered alter cloth made that had that expression written in New Hebrew text.

People would ask me "Why?"

I would tell them to look at each Hebrew expression for "I AM".

At first they looked identical and then noticed they were not exactly the same.

Actually, they were pronounced differently!



As a side note: in Exodus 3:14, Yahweh is not used: Elohim is used.
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  #22  
Old 14-01-2020, 04:59 AM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honza
Is Yahweh a God who is "outside" of us? The OT never mentions the "God Within". Instead Yahweh came from above and spoke to people from the outside.

It is only indicative of todays spiritual climate that many people feel there is no God "outside". The outer world is barren. But I feel it has not always been so.
Yahweh is the God most people do not resonate with. Today, most Bibles do not use the name even though it once was the most used names in the Bible.

Ironically, Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible, is used about 7 times more than Jesus' name is used in the Christian Bible.
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  #23  
Old 14-01-2020, 12:44 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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YHVH (I am that I am, or I will be what I will be) is the "personal" name of God as revealed by God. Traditionally spoken by Jews as "Adonai" (my lord), as the pronunciation of the name itself was never spoken and thus has been lost to history. Christians may write this name as Yahweh or similar.

Here is a very good high-level discussion of the names of God:

https://www.thetorah.com/article/yhw...d-that-becomes
--Prof. James A. Diamond
Quote:
YHWH conveys more of a relational being in a partnership of reciprocity with Israel. It connotes a God of endless becoming, as the imperfect tense I will be indicates, a deity who cannot but be elusive, continually shaped and reshaped by the respective partners with whom it establishes relationship. Other divine names then derive naturally in this respect from the core relational name YHWH. They correlate to various dimensions of God such as compassion, mercy, or justice, which are all manifest in relationships.
Quote:
As opposed to Maimonides’ detached, unaffected, necessary existence, Rashi exquisitely captures this God of relationship by fleshing out the meaning of ehyeh asher ehyeh (I am that I am, or I will be what I will be) as,

אהיה עמם בצרה זו אשר אהיה עמם בשעבוד שאר מלכיות.

I will be with them during this affliction as I will be with them during their oppression by other kingdoms.

God provides the comfort, assistance, and empathy expected of any partner in a meaningful relationship.

Here is an important point in understanding our relationship with What Is.
Quote:
Kabbalistic Interpretation – Closer to the Biblical Original

Rabbinic and mystical interpretations of an evolving, impressionable, at times fragmented and suffering, God, emerge more naturally from the original sense of a personal interventionist God subject to emotions and affectation in the Hebrew Bible as well as its rabbinic overlay.[33]

Thus, a mythic continuum stretches from the Bible through rabbinic midrash, kabbalah, and onward. Conversely, the philosophical abstractions consistent with notions of divine perfection actually require a violent distortion of the original text, imposing a notion of the deity that is foreign both to the written text and its voluminous oral traditions.
That is why Kabbalah holds that creation is for God, just as God is for creation. We grow and evolve in interbeing with one another. There is a foundational relationship of interbeing, and much of interbeing has to do with fulfillment, union, communion, realisation, and illumination. Our intrinsic, foundational needs as humanity may have to do equally with the physical (profane) as the intangible (sacred), as we are physical incarnations. But that's not to say that the fruits of this universe or multiverse -- including sentient, self-aware beings who may know themselves and may begin to apprehend Oneness -- are not desired or needed in some way by whomever or whatever brought all of this into being initially. At least, that is the mystical understanding, as derived from mystical traditions of this and other wisdom traditions.

So it's not so much outside or inside, but communion and interbeing. Relational. The distinction noted in the above article is more one of becoming (mystical and relational) versus being (here, meaning perfected).

YHWH refers to a relational state of becoming Oneself along with the rest of What Is (including us), versus a state of perfected, remote beingness. It emphasises the personal and relational, whilst other names emphasise the abstract, remote, or perfected.

Peace & blessings
7L
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  #24  
Old 14-01-2020, 02:34 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
YHVH (I am that I am, or I will be what I will be) is the "personal" name of God as revealed by God. Traditionally spoken by Jews as "Adonai" (my lord), as the pronunciation of the name itself was never spoken and thus has been lost to history. Christians may write this name as Yahweh or similar.
7L
The Bible speaks in numerous places of calling Yahweh by name. At times this was a common practice, that is, calling upon the name of Yahweh as mentioned in Genesis chapter 4. In Exodus 6:3, the name of God is mentioned and it is Yahweh.

The word God is transliterated as Elohim. Elohim was involved in the first creation account. First usage is Genesis 1:1.

Yahweh got introduced in the beginning of the second creation account. First usage is Genesis 2:4.

Adonai is first introduced in Genesis 15:2 as a compound expression "Adonai Yahweh".

Of the 3 words used (Elohim, Yahweh and Adonai), Yahweh is used the most in the Bible. Elohim comes in a close second and Adonai comes in a distant third.

It appears the Jews stopped using the name Yahweh, especially during the Babylonian diaspora.
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  #25  
Old 14-01-2020, 04:08 PM
Honza Honza is offline
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You are good on the history John. Interesting.
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  #26  
Old 14-01-2020, 08:08 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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YHVH is not pronounced by Jews as it is written and has not been for centuries, it seems. Tradition has it that the original pronunciation has been lost in the mists of time.

Instead, typically YHVH is pronounced as "Adonai" wherever it occurs in the texts. Or just God in casual conversation Some traditionalists say "haShem" instead of "Adonai", which just means "the name".

As John notes, YHVH is the most common way "God" is referenced in the texts and as I noted, has generally been viewed as the relational, personal God of interbeing (both/and) and of becoming in relationship with all that is.
The God of the mystics and the God who (that, etc) acknowledges your humanity, simply put. In whatever ways that might encompass. Or at least, those are among the aspects traditionally highlighted with the use of YHVH.

Peace & blessings
7L
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Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

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  #27  
Old 14-01-2020, 11:49 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
YHVH is not pronounced by Jews as it is written and has not been for centuries, it seems. Tradition has it that the original pronunciation has been lost in the mists of time.

Instead, typically YHVH is pronounced as "Adonai" wherever it occurs in the texts. Or just God in casual conversation Some traditionalists say "haShem" instead of "Adonai", which just means "the name".

As John notes, YHVH is the most common way "God" is referenced in the texts and as I noted, has generally been viewed as the relational, personal God of interbeing (both/and) and of becoming in relationship with all that is.
The God of the mystics and the God who (that, etc) acknowledges your humanity, simply put. In whatever ways that might encompass. Or at least, those are among the aspects traditionally highlighted with the use of YHVH.

Peace & blessings
7L
The Jews stopped using God's name not just a few centuries ago, it has been over several millenniums. The various Diasporas took a heavy toll upon them. If you were in their 'shoes', would you not probably do the same thing in hiding the name of you God?

When you look into a Hebrew Bible and see the four letters, the Tetragrammaton, what immediately comes to your mind? What comes to my mind is what it says: something like Yahweh. People, for the most part, can actually look into a Hebrew Bible and still see God's name.

If you look at the Masoretic Text were it says "this is Yahweh's name', you can look at exactly how the name was actually pronounced - not really a big secret.
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  #28  
Old 15-01-2020, 12:41 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
The Jews stopped using God's name not just a few centuries ago, it has been over several millenniums. The various Diasporas took a heavy toll upon them. If you were in their 'shoes', would you not probably do the same thing in hiding the name of you God?

When you look into a Hebrew Bible and see the four letters, the Tetragrammaton, what immediately comes to your mind? What comes to my mind is what it says: something like Yahweh. People, for the most part, can actually look into a Hebrew Bible and still see God's name.

If you look at the Masoretic Text were it says "this is Yahweh's name', you can look at exactly how the name was actually pronounced - not really a big secret.

John, hello.
1) Many centuries and a few millennia = the same thing I understand the time frame.

2) I related the facts, i.e., here is the tradition (i.e., we don't pronounce YHVH as written). There is no criticism there. Are you assuming that there is? I couldn't be sure.
If so, you don't need to classify me or presume my intent. You could simply ask me for clarification &/or discuss your position further Just for example...

Peace & blessings
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

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Last edited by 7luminaries : 15-01-2020 at 01:32 PM.
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  #29  
Old 15-01-2020, 02:38 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
John, hello.
1) Many centuries and a few millennia = the same thing I understand the time frame.

2) I related the facts, i.e., here is the tradition (i.e., we don't pronounce YHVH as written). There is no criticism there. Are you assuming that there is? I couldn't be sure.
If so, you don't need to classify me or presume my intent. You could simply ask me for clarification &/or discuss your position further Just for example...

Peace & blessings
7L
The difference between a century and a millennia is only a factor of 10.

There are numerous scriptures in the Hebrew text that says people did call upon the name of Yahweh. In Genesis 4:26(b), that scripture claims people began calling on the name of Yahweh. The scripture reads "At that time people began to call on the name of the Lord." In Hebrew, the Lord mentioned is Yahweh.

There is a huge array of scriptures in which people were calling on the name of the Lord (Yahweh). As I mentioned in my previous post, the various diasporas probably played a major role in that of not using the LORD's name. There were other periods in which the name of Yahweh was not mentioned. 1 and 2 Kings was a dark period when it came to not using Yahweh's name. Then toward the end of 2 Kings, they came to the realization of their error. They were surprised that they were worshiping even the wrong God!.

In the previous post, I asked the question, if we had to go thru such diasporas the Jews went thru, how would we react in that of the usage of the name of Yahweh? Some claim during those time periods, is when the name of Yahweh stopped being spoken and in some cases even written, but it does not mean what was done was right. There was actually no scriptural reason to stop using the name of the LORD which is Yahweh.

Being people in the past called upon the name of Yahweh, and the name is still in the Hebrew Bibles, there is no scriptural reason not to use the name. Then why do some believe the name should not be used?

In 1 and 2 Kings, a reformation occurred with the final outcome being that people realized they were worshiping the wrong God, changed their ways, and began calling upon Yahweh.

People are commanded to use the name of Yahweh. Being there is no reason why they can not today, then they should restore the usage of the name to its original position.
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  #30  
Old 16-01-2020, 01:21 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
The difference between a century and a millennia is only a factor of 10.
Hello John. In fact, I only ever said "centuries" and that certainly also means millenia. Why is it so important to you that you take an oppositional position? I do understand the time frame and we're all allowed to phrase things as we like.

Quote:
There are numerous scriptures in the Hebrew text that says people did call upon the name of Yahweh. In Genesis 4:26(b), that scripture claims people began calling on the name of Yahweh. The scripture reads "At that time people began to call on the name of the Lord." In Hebrew, the Lord mentioned is Yahweh.

There is a huge array of scriptures in which people were calling on the name of the Lord (Yahweh). As I mentioned in my previous post, the various diasporas probably played a major role in that of not using the LORD's name. There were other periods in which the name of Yahweh was not mentioned. 1 and 2 Kings was a dark period when it came to not using Yahweh's name. Then toward the end of 2 Kings, they came to the realization of their error. They were surprised that they were worshiping even the wrong God!.

In the previous post, I asked the question, if we had to go thru such diasporas the Jews went thru, how would we react in that of the usage of the name of Yahweh? Some claim during those time periods, is when the name of Yahweh stopped being spoken and in some cases even written, but it does not mean what was done was right. There was actually no scriptural reason to stop using the name of the LORD which is Yahweh.

Being people in the past called upon the name of Yahweh, and the name is still in the Hebrew Bibles, there is no scriptural reason not to use the name. Then why do some believe the name should not be used?

In 1 and 2 Kings, a reformation occurred with the final outcome being that people realized they were worshiping the wrong God, changed their ways, and began calling upon Yahweh.

People are commanded to use the name of Yahweh. Being there is no reason why they can not today, then they should restore the usage of the name to its original position.

John, I am not the speech police and my position is that folks can say what they like and take ownership for it. You can certainly say whatever you like and it's fine by me. Just take ownership for it.
So why would I have any issue with your right to phrase things as you like OR with whatever name you use for "God" or Oneness?

As I said, I am only relaying the Jewish tradition and presenting the facts, which is that YHVH is not pronounced and has not been for a long, long time (centuries, millenia, etc).
Normally RabbiO would come in here and make the post but he's not always on so I just put it out there.

Why does it matter to you that Jews don't pronounce YHVH? Instead, we typically read it aloud as "Adonai". It's just a longstanding tradition, not a "right v. wrong".
Adonai thus becomes more personal through longstanding use and YHVH (I am that I am) is more ephemeral and mystical, being unpronounced.
Who knows? Maybe one day we will reintroduce pronunciation of YHVH but it's not in use at this time.

TBH ritual observance is my least favourite aspect of religious tradition and I am not observant. But many aspects of tradition are meaningful and woven into the culture, so I try to be considerate of these longstanding traditions.

You do as you like. Christians have various ways of pronouncing it and you can pick whichever you prefer.

Peace & blessings
7L
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For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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