Religion and Spirtuality

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Would our judgement of Christianity be different if our exposure to it was through some fundamentalist or Christ? In a sense, the ones that irritate us and enrage us, are bestowing a gift on us as much as the ones we admire and find agreement with. Why? Because they offer a direct challenge to us. They challenge us to understand, forgive and love. How we respond becomes a measure of our spiritual development. Can we conclude as Christ did to say "forgive them for they know not what they do"? There is a lot of room for 'light' in enlightenment.....:)

Yes, I have heard of a Zen story where the Master insisted on keeping the person everyone else loathed around. It was good practice for all the other monks. Practice is much easier in practice (and on paper) than on the bumpy road at times.

I enjoy your posts and contributions on this forum, Molearner. Thank you for that.

[Shaunc]

Religion is for people that are frightened of going to hell and spirituality is for people that have already been there.

[Snow Goose]

Originally Posted by Shaunc

Religion is for people that are frightened of going to hell and spirituality is for people that have already been there.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Please kindly enlighten me as to what you mean by basic structure

Name, discourse, symbols/iconography, ritual.

Disagree on that point....... Let's talk about Yoga - yoga encourages discipline, practice, deepening of spiritual awareness. In what way does that discourage free thinking?

I didn't think yoga was a religion, and I think it's a great balance of mind/body/spirit.

Buddhism. Buddhism starts with the premise - know for yourself. That is, take this body of knowledge and apply/utilize it until you know what the Buddha knew. No need to worship, just practice. Until then, keep working. Meditation - beyond belief. Beyond thought, emotion, practice, or belief. How is that not free?

I have practiced in the ashrams and there is a risk of becoming 'one of the herd' and there are certainly some cult-like aspects to some Buddhist sects. If we speak of the dhamma as taught by Gotama the buddha, then a person's religious persuasion is basically irrelevant - it makes no difference if one is Buddhist or not.

And how is that not free-er than "free thought" where the ego most often is the arbiter of what is right and not.

Yes, the right vs. wrong paradigm can't approach the spiritual subject.

To transcend ego, limited self, small self, selfishness, idiocy, whatever we want to call it, requires ascension beyond the limited self. In that way, to suggest that a person still mired in partial ignorance or/and delusion is capable of seeing through that themself - well it's possible, but it's also a long shot sometimes (Big caveat: depends on the individual)

OK... That's a very subtle subject area.

Further, I want to be clear that I am not discounting nor would ever argue against aspirants who discover Truth for themselves - there are many. i.e. I don't disagree with you on that point either, and agree also that people should keep investigating for themselves and be honest in themselves.

On the flipside:

As to honesty, well certainly, this is also possibly related to an individual aspect of self. How many on here don't think they themselves are honest and how many on this forum seem to imply (implicitly or explicitly) that they are at a peak and there is no more to do, or/and they are in no need of a genuinely realized Master because let's face it, only "I" am the true arbiter of Truth.

With the issue of doing, I would suggest stop doing and start noticing. It's basically the difference between willfulness and willingness.

Well as attractive as that is, that ain't the gold standard in genuinely realized traditions - whether they be religion based or not. (for similar reasons as above)

It is without reference to tradition or religion.

Indeed, agreed that joining a religion is not the one true direction. But if someone is throwing gold my way, I wouldn't discount that value either. I guess we might be talking about different cultures (yet you argue above that all religions can be "lumped together") as I see no disunity between freedom of thought and spiritual traditions. I also avoid and steer clear of any that don't support principles of freedom of thought, meditation, Gnosis, and kindness.

Well religions have the same primary structure and are sustained by the same primary mechanisms, but the symbols, icons, discourses, defining rituals and beliefs vary considerably.

There is also the same that you could apply for all these arguments that religions are to be avoided, teachers are to be avoided, and even more strongly, that all religions want is to control people.

Personally I would suggest avoiding religion as 'the one and only true way' and ideas such 'believe in this of go to hell', or 'a guru is necessary' is highly coercive, and when it comes to the finer human qualities such self-awareness, insight, compassion, kindness, truthfulness etc., religion isn't necessary.

Granted I don't doubt that many do. It depends on the person and the teacher and the organization - there are specious individuals and many who have no spiritual insights, but claim status. But this is not everyone.

So again, the one sided arguments need balancing, in my opinion, as they are unfair - unfair to whom? Unfair to anyone who is genuinely interested in plumbing the depths of a religion whether that be Buddhism, Yoga, Neo-Advaita, Sufism, Spiritual Christianity (please don't mention the US Christian fundamentalists who scare me)

Those with a genuine interest probably should 'plumb the depths'. teehee.

As to your last statement, you believe that all the people in Sufism, in monasteries around the world, in Buddhism, in Neo-Advaita, Yoga, are all coerced, Gem?

Probably not all, but I have practiced in the more liberal ashrams, and there is a cultish brainwashing side to it, but as in all things, we have to take to good with the bad, and avoid becoming entrapped. In the traditions I involved myself with, a person's discernment was considered important, there was no attempt to convert anyone, and no expectation that people should believe the teachings. But, in these places, no religious practices or alternative meditations are permitted. There is still a risk of getting 'hooked' in places like that, and when going into ashrams like this, there is still the good and the bad of it, and it's very important to keep one's free thought - and then keep quiet about it.

Ending with again - I don't disagree that not all people need religion by any means, or a teacher but it's so circumstantial and dependent on causes and conditions and the individuals' own propensity/spiritual insights/personality etc. that I wouldn't go all out for one path or the other. And I wouldn't discount that there are deeply realized teachers who have insights which could benefit. As to who/where that gold is, I guess I can only put that down to karmic causes and conditions. Nor would I disrespect people who have found their own Truth and happiness in even more belief based religions, so long as those contribute to inner peace, joy and care for people other than myself.

BT

Indeed. Well said.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Molearner

These discussions of religion and spirituality seem to often digress from any sense of reality. The fact is that, in reality, they can comfortably co-exist. There is a naivete based on the assumption that we live our lives in a transparent and totally honest way without hypocrisy. This is simply not true. People who profess honesty when faced with starvation will steal to survive...they will cheat on their taxes, their spouses, they will praise dictators that they detest, they will declare that all is well when they are in tremendous pain and under great stress. In regards to religion they will belong to churches that dictate no birth control, no abortions and secretly follow neither dictate. None of these aberrations precludes them from having a genuine spirituality. There is no one that is all good just as there is no one that is all evil. People co-exist in bad marriages whether it might be a marriage to an individual, a religion, a relationship, a set of stated beliefs or a particular political party, form of government or a country.

There is a great amount of hypocrisy among advocates of spirituality as opposed to religion. It is this: they wish to make themselves separate from religion and in their next breath tell one that they must be accepting of and charitable to everyone that differs from them.....e.g. Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, fundamentals, black, white, Democrats, Republicans, rich, poor, the criminal, those that live in ivory towers.....etc. the list in endless. The greatest test, IMO, for anyone that aspires to be spiritual is to not allow themselves to be drawn into a philosophy of separation that seemingly elevates themselves into something that is nothing more than an elevation of their individual egos. And the greatest commandment is this: (you finish the blanks).......:)

Hi Molearner,

Yes, there is the survival aspect that can come with living. When pressed to keep oneself going, then does any of this really matter? May find comfort or guidance as to how to keep oneself together when faced with dire circumstances, but feel one will do what one has to to survive.

Flip side is there are stories and reflections of one helping another to get through it without asking whether one is this or that. He/she sees someone in need and offers the help.

When something becomes an organization, then would agree there may be elements that are created that form agendas that may stray away from what may benefit the people and into the preservation of the organization.

Perhaps this is the division that gets created in regards to religion/spirituality.
People get fixated upon the ideas, philosophy, and/or theology, IMO. So, although may be inspiring, to understand what these may be alluding to takes more then lip service, IMO.

Through all this, we are still human. With this comes all the aspects of being human while living this life. So, feel these tendacies to unite or divide in a way comes with the territory and perhaps it is figuring out what serves and what does not. Which may be found in many ways, whether religion, spirituality, or just living with neither.

Thank you

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes, as dogmatism means being fixed in belief and that's obviously problematic.I think what people miss is there is a difference between what is true and what is known in that the truth is momentarily perceived and knowledge is a symbolic representation. In the case of religion, if the symbols, iconography, rituals were removed, it would cease to exist - because religion can't actually be observed apart from its symbols and practices. The universe would not cease to be because it is immediate and primary to experience - like, no one has to do it. We become confused in thinking what we say is about nature is true of nature. That's the primal problem with 'knowledge'. We think our mental ways of understanding nature are the truth, and don't even realise they are our own imaginary productions. This makes it all but impossible to be religious and truthful at the same time - Though the religion could be a cultural practice which expresses the communal spiritual aspect of human beings.

The mind works through images in order for me, or anyone, to find some sot of correlation with whatever it may be. So, without an image of some kind, would any of this make any sense or even be noticed?

What is religion or religious? Is it within the symbols, icons, theology, ect.? Or is it more of a faith/belief based created practice? Perhaps a combination?
What I am getting at is there is not a whole lot of difference between religion and spirituality, they both seem to run in similar fashion.

Truth seems something one may find with in oneself. For me, also what may change with in my mind according to what may be learned and understood at present. Yes, the Universe will do what it will regardless of what I may think or even "know".

There are so many practices out there, that I feel can not assume for all as to what may be true or not. Does a ritual really bring spirits/ancestors to aid in a hunt?(for example)

Rituals can bring focus to an intended goal. Whether it be to give thanks or to bring focus to the mind. Which yes can relate that these can be religious in their own way. So without them what do you have?

Will just add, I do see the communal benefits that can be form with some religious gatherings and worship.

[blossomingtree]

Gem,

Fair points overall, the thing is there is no tool that can be not be misused and on the flip side every tool has potential to yield the correct results.

Religion, at least in Buddhist terms, since that is an area both you and I have some experience in, is a fine raft.

Tradition, culture, rituals including bowing all have their place and like all fine art, it's a fine piece of tapestry.

Obviously there will be some who mistake the forest for the trees or is it the trees for the forest whatever it is. The point is some people will make a cult out of anything - including bliss, no religion, New Age, my thinking, my cult, or spiritual teachings - it can't be helped because we live in the land and realm of ego, dualistic thinking, living and fundamentally ignorance. Jyotir has many, many excellent posts on this forum which detail the mechanics of this.

That is why there is nothing so beautiful and true that ego can't ruin and likewise there is nothing so mundane or ugly that Truth can't transcend. It's a two way street.

My point is, given a choice between having help from a a group or realized teacher or not, I would go with the former. I am biased by two things:
1. Having had this tremendous and unthinkable experience - believe me I'm a skeptic as much as the next person and I took a long time before accepting anyone as I was foremost suspicious and haha didn't trust many teachers
2. Recognizing that the Truth as taught by all genuine spiritual traditions are not inconsistent - and although it sounds easy - there are so many pitfalls (I get mired constantly hehe) - that the genuinely realized are genuinely miles ahead and have access to Knowledge that is superior, and also if they are real teachers, they know also how to help.

The biggest elephant in this room - the huge caveat is - can a person find a genuinely realized teacher? Can they find a tradition that genuinely aims to free them - kick them out of the nest so to speak, and not mire them within a tradition/belief system/religion?

That is what is up to karma and the fate of life, of which I am no expert. But seek and ye shall find, and above all, if you alone are the sole arbiter of truth (I know I am enlightened or have "got it" and I don't have to do a thing nor listen to anyone else) - you can be pretty sure you have a long long road to go.*

Blessings.

*you = one (not you)

[FallingLeaves]

the basic problem as I see it is we are ALL mired, just some of us are mired in places we like to go while others are mired in places we don't want at all.

my perception at a young age was that even the most accomplished 'masters' for lack of a better word are in this position it is simply that their position is admired whereas certain other positions aren't. So we name them something different than we name other things and then assume the names actually mean what we think they mean... But in fact it is the fact of this admiration of some positions and dislike of others, that keeps us mired.

So if you follow a teacher you are going to get mired in whatever mire they find themselves in... because over a long period you will sop up their teachings, mire and all. It is the same as with politics... if you join the game it is almost impossible to get anywhere long term without buying into the good ole boys network hook line and sinker and so nothing is going to change for you being there. But if you don't follow a teacher it is hard to see what to do, and the default is you are going to repeat all the common mistakes and not get anywhere that way either.

But people are in too much of a hurry. What we don't realize is that when you make mistakes, a lot, you eventually get the feel for yourself for what is a mistake and what is not. But if you prevent yourself from making mistakes, you also prevent yourself from learning the difference between one thing and another, and have to continue to rely on someone else to tell you what is what.

[blossomingtree]

This 'business' is not a make it up as you go along type of trip. Neither is it a guess game - believe it or not, there is an end game, and furthermore that end game keeps growing but it's direction is consistent across all well known spiritual traditions. How's that for God's Grace.

The other inherent issue with your assumption is you think it is an ego trip or just a "self improvement" program, make enough mistakes and the personality wisens up. But no, it transcends the personality in essence, that is the rub. I don't believe it is just about self-improvement. Grace is much more than that, much more intense, much more heart driven and intensely personal. Also, if someone wants to trip over the same rock of course that's all fine (we do anyway) but to imagine that forgoing guruship or friendship or guidance or kindness or expertise (or whatever it is) because going alone is going to teach you more, I think, misunderstands what the teachings are fundamentally about.

But anyway your signature says it best: “To be truly ignorant, be content with your own knowledge.” ― Zhuangzi

BT

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

This 'business' is not a make it up as you go along type of trip. Neither is it a guess game - believe it or not, there is an end game, and furthermore that end game keeps growing but it's direction is consistent across all well known spiritual traditions. How's that for God's Grace.

The other inherent issue with your assumption is you think it is an ego trip or just a "self improvement" program, make enough mistakes and the personality wisens up. But no, it transcends the personality in essence, that is the rub. I don't believe it is just about self-improvement. Grace is much more than that, much more intense, much more heart driven and intensely personal. Also, if someone wants to trip over the same rock of course that's all fine (we do anyway) but to imagine that forgoing guruship or friendship or guidance or kindness or expertise (or whatever it is) because going alone is going to teach you more, I think, misunderstands what the teachings are fundamentally about.

But anyway your signature says it best: “To be truly ignorant, be content with your own knowledge.” ― Zhuangzi

BT

hey i wouldn't have chosen the path I'm stuck on if even one person had cared about me. Believe me I wanted no part of it. I jsut wanted a normal life like other people have. But I am an outcast, so I do what I have to to survive in an unkind world.

But that is fine if you want to be mean too... I seem to be collecting that today.

Thanks