Integrate or Renounce .

Originally Posted by God-Like

Nice post G.S. and I agree with your mentality for use of a better word .

Why do you think that some recognised guru types distance themselves or what they are from the mind-body environment / experience .

I kinda chuckle a bit with the extremeness of it all ... It's like anger arises but it doesn't belong to me .. lol ..

I understand where they are coming from but I also understand that it doesn't apply to the current situation .

In my eyes for such individuals that are advocates of oneness and Self and all that jazz pretty much renounce everything that is not permanent in reflection of what they are in experience of form / physicality ..


x dazzle x

Thank you.

How much of Spirituality is a form of escape from the mind/body experience? Not having done any kind of survey but I'd guess quite a few people come to Spirituality or religion because of some kind of trauma or lack, often as I look through the posts I can't help the feeling that they're missing or looking for something - or simply want avoidance. They say religion is for those that are afraid of going to hell and Spirituality is for those that have been there and I'd count myself as one of the latter. It's an experience 'being in the world but not of it', detaching from everything or feeling.

While I can come up with Spiritual answers to those kinds of experiences there are also psychological ones too that I've experienced in certain situations. Sometimes the mind can play tricks in dangerous situations as a survival technique, other times it feels as though the mind/body is simply a vehicle for experience and it feels as though we are our Higher Self wearing a suit because we have to navigate a hostile environment. Sometimes Life itself gives us PTSD.

Emotions are very difficult for some people and they can feel as though they have no control, which is where the renounce or integrate question can come into play. I used to be a very angry young man and it felt as though I was totally consumed by anger - I was anger, so much so that I almost strangled someone. Looking back that was an interesting experience because In could 'see myself' doing it but was completely detached. Nowadays though I channel it productively, but that could be as much of a coping mechanism as it not belonging to me.

I was going through something in my mind one day when my Guide popped in with a question. "What is the Spirituality of sitting on the toilet?" Ask yourself that question, come up with an answer and in the very next breath ask "What just happened?"

In answer to another question I had about vibrations he said "It is encompassing." In cymatics the higher the vibrations the more complex the patterns. Spirituality is full of contradictions, exclusions, dualities, ironies..... Questions like is renouncing more noble than experiencing, or is non-attachment the crowning glory? Wouldn't the vibratory patterns be more complex if we could encompass and experience all of those things as aspects of a wider reality?

Then again, some people do like their labels.

Originally Posted by Moonglow

For me, all has reason to be. Without my body would it be possible to experience the touch of another or what the senses experience?
For me this is part of the joys in life. Although, must admit not so much, depending on what is being sensed.

In Spirit there are no taste buds, no sense of smell, no rather fine single malt. Heaven can wait. And when it comes to the 'not so much' part, those times add to the feeling of being alive and experiencing rather than just existing.

I'm not coming back, so if that means taking the experience by the short and curlies and squeezing it until it screams, so be it.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hi Moons,

In regards to no self, it's absolutely true, but what happens is that when self appears or self is aware of self, some then relate to that sense of self as illusory or non existent .

In my eyes it's an incorrect conclusion .

Just because what you are exists beyond the sense of self, doesn't nullify the sense of that when it happens / applies .

I don't mind sticking my neck out on this and saying it's a flaw that some folk make when there is the claim of an illusory self .

The physical form / experience like you say is a part of life and it is a part of you / what you are .

If we were to associate Self with no self and leave the warts by the side of the road, then it somehow contradicts that Self is all that is ..


x daz x

Hi daz,

Sometimes I'll hear or be told that this physical self is illusionary. So, step back and evaluate or ask in what ways is this being referred to.

I get that being this person is a finite state. Meaning eventually will come to its conclusion, as all life forms seem to do in a way. There is that Spirit/ energy that goes on after this and that does seem to be the essence of life.

But, it seems a bit of waste to have the opportunity to experience this physical form only to denounce or feel one is a prisoner, of sorts, looking for the key to be free. Which to me is more in how one thinks, then how one is in body.

So yes, can relate that the realizations do not nullify the existence of one self.
Just in how It is related to, I suppose.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

In Spirit there are no taste buds, no sense of smell, no rather fine single malt. Heaven can wait. And when it comes to the 'not so much' part, those times add to the feeling of being alive and experiencing rather than just existing.

I'm not coming back, so if that means taking the experience by the short and curlies and squeezing it until it screams, so be it.

Hi Greenslade,

I feel that what is experienced in the physical is also experienced in Spirit.

What comes to mind is;
Life is about living, which includes the experiences one survives. The body can be reflection of a life well lived and the scars that are carried tell the tale.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Thank you.

How much of Spirituality is a form of escape from the mind/body experience? Not having done any kind of survey but I'd guess quite a few people come to Spirituality or religion because of some kind of trauma or lack, often as I look through the posts I can't help the feeling that they're missing or looking for something - or simply want avoidance. They say religion is for those that are afraid of going to hell and Spirituality is for those that have been there and I'd count myself as one of the latter. It's an experience 'being in the world but not of it', detaching from everything or feeling.

While I can come up with Spiritual answers to those kinds of experiences there are also psychological ones too that I've experienced in certain situations. Sometimes the mind can play tricks in dangerous situations as a survival technique, other times it feels as though the mind/body is simply a vehicle for experience and it feels as though we are our Higher Self wearing a suit because we have to navigate a hostile environment. Sometimes Life itself gives us PTSD.

Emotions are very difficult for some people and they can feel as though they have no control, which is where the renounce or integrate question can come into play. I used to be a very angry young man and it felt as though I was totally consumed by anger - I was anger, so much so that I almost strangled someone. Looking back that was an interesting experience because In could 'see myself' doing it but was completely detached. Nowadays though I channel it productively, but that could be as much of a coping mechanism as it not belonging to me.

I was going through something in my mind one day when my Guide popped in with a question. "What is the Spirituality of sitting on the toilet?" Ask yourself that question, come up with an answer and in the very next breath ask "What just happened?"

In answer to another question I had about vibrations he said "It is encompassing." In cymatics the higher the vibrations the more complex the patterns. Spirituality is full of contradictions, exclusions, dualities, ironies..... Questions like is renouncing more noble than experiencing, or is non-attachment the crowning glory? Wouldn't the vibratory patterns be more complex if we could encompass and experience all of those things as aspects of a wider reality?

Then again, some people do like their labels.

There is definitely a leaning towards detachment in certain circles and that perspective does hold weight and merit but so does integration and attachment .

How I see it is that a letting go of this worldly mind-body-universe simply reveals what we are that is present beyond all of that .

In a way it's like the self is the environment of the earth and the no self is the environment of the moon .. when you have been to the moon and back there is for a while an adjustment had, there is an adaption / integration of a sort occurring .

This is why for a time some masters cannot function in this world for they are neither here or there so to speak .

What I find slightly misguiding is that peeps who are of the earth suggest that they are on the moon still ..

The dead give away is their self identified reflection had of not being here, or being no-one ..

The more I have integrated overtime from being there and here, I have found that it's totally fine to be absorbed within the moment of joy and sufferings and it's totally fine to say I am joyful and I am suffering even though there is the realization had that what you are is beyond that .



x dazzle x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Kerubiel

Well in a way I do perceive them as me. I perceive the body of awareness, what we have come to know, as myself. If, and when, I came across harmful knowledge of the body that knowledge became a part of me the moment \I began intending and supporting it. It is my job to clean the body of knowledge. To begin supporting a positive body.

I think the crux of the matter is where one's awareness of I AM is .

For instance when an individual has a near death experience or is astral travelling or is entertaining some deep meditative state then there is perhaps minimal or no awareness of their own physical mind-body connection .

In deep sleep / samadhi there is no self reflection had of feeling this way or that way about what was experienced earlier on in the day . The connection is no more .

I believe what happens is that the experience / realization of what you are beyond self is related to one's true nature so to then be aware of a connected mind-body and experience anger and such likes one can then dismiss such thoughts and expressions and distance themselves from that ... simply because there has been the awareness of a self that does not entertain anger .

The key in my eyes is that no-self cannot be angry only self can be angry ..

To distance the anger from themselves based upon the awareness had of no self is in a way missing out on the experience of anger ..

Another thought is that one doesn't miss out on the experience of anger one just denies their anger ..


x daz x

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi Greenslade,

I feel that what is experienced in the physical is also experienced in Spirit.

What comes to mind is;
Life is about living, which includes the experiences one survives. The body can be reflection of a life well lived and the scars that are carried tell the tale.

Hey there Moonglow

People tend to project onto Spirit - Spirit is 'up there' and away from it all, another way of renouncing the human in them?

We're here for our Biblical three score and ten years, once we pop our clogs we have an eternity of being Spirit - and how long did we have as Spirit before we came here? We have a short time - for the sake of illustration - as human do do what we need to do, to have the experience and learn from it. Might as well make the best of it.

If we are here to learn the lessons, which ones? As Spirit we're as Spiritual as it goes, then some.

Originally Posted by God-Like

There is definitely a leaning towards detachment in certain circles and that perspective does hold weight and merit but so does integration and attachment .

How I see it is that a letting go of this worldly mind-body-universe simply reveals what we are that is present beyond all of that .

In a way it's like the self is the environment of the earth and the no self is the environment of the moon .. when you have been to the moon and back there is for a while an adjustment had, there is an adaption / integration of a sort occurring .

This is why for a time some masters cannot function in this world for they are neither here or there so to speak .

What I find slightly misguiding is that peeps who are of the earth suggest that they are on the moon still ..

The dead give away is their self identified reflection had of not being here, or being no-one ..

The more I have integrated overtime from being there and here, I have found that it's totally fine to be absorbed within the moment of joy and sufferings and it's totally fine to say I am joyful and I am suffering even though there is the realization had that what you are is beyond that .



x dazzle x

I tend to 'listen' to the Universe first and foremost, and right now there's definitely signs coming thick and fast. One of the major ones right now is Gnosticism and the 'know thyself and thou shalt know God' theme. With questions such as these the focus is on which one is better and because it's a Spiritual forum people tend to choose the 'Spiritual' option - or what is defined as Spiritual. My own answer would be whichever one is best in context in a 'tool for the job' fashion. What would be enlightening/awareness-making isn't which one I'd choose but the reasons for choosing it.

Is renouncing or integrating another way of asking running away from or embracing? I often wonder if Spirituality has become escapism more than answers, enlightenment as a way of redressing the balance of the PTSD of Life.

I have a very different perspective than pretty much everyone in this forum because for most it's higher and exclusion, while mine is expansion and inclusion. Einstein said that genius is being able to hold two opposing concepts in the mind at the same time, and it's also called cognitive dissonance or the 'lock on, lock out' principle. I wonder how different this and so many other conversations would be different if that little snippet from Einstein was embraced? Or if there was self-aware enough to realise what was being said?

So who says we have to choose just one? Why can't we be here, there and in both places at the same time? That's 'where' Spirit is. Why can't we renounce and integrate at the same time, or better yet why don't we?

Where we're from is still up for grabs, some way that we are from the stars, others say we are from everywhere.... and on it goes. But are those peeps really so misguided or are they expressing something hidden away inside them that they don't understand or can't find words for? Or are they trying to escape?

That what you are is both 'here' and 'there' and the potentiality of what there is yet to realise, 'here' and 'there' are focus not fact. There is no 'there', there is only 'here' because 'here' is "I Am." Once you are 'here' everywhere is 'here'.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I tend to 'listen' to the Universe first and foremost, and right now there's definitely signs coming thick and fast. One of the major ones right now is Gnosticism and the 'know thyself and thou shalt know God' theme. With questions such as these the focus is on which one is better and because it's a Spiritual forum people tend to choose the 'Spiritual' option - or what is defined as Spiritual. My own answer would be whichever one is best in context in a 'tool for the job' fashion. What would be enlightening/awareness-making isn't which one I'd choose but the reasons for choosing it.

Is renouncing or integrating another way of asking running away from or embracing? I often wonder if Spirituality has become escapism more than answers, enlightenment as a way of redressing the balance of the PTSD of Life.

I have a very different perspective than pretty much everyone in this forum because for most it's higher and exclusion, while mine is expansion and inclusion. Einstein said that genius is being able to hold two opposing concepts in the mind at the same time, and it's also called cognitive dissonance or the 'lock on, lock out' principle. I wonder how different this and so many other conversations would be different if that little snippet from Einstein was embraced? Or if there was self-aware enough to realise what was being said?

So who says we have to choose just one? Why can't we be here, there and in both places at the same time? That's 'where' Spirit is. Why can't we renounce and integrate at the same time, or better yet why don't we?

Where we're from is still up for grabs, some way that we are from the stars, others say we are from everywhere.... and on it goes. But are those peeps really so misguided or are they expressing something hidden away inside them that they don't understand or can't find words for? Or are they trying to escape?

That what you are is both 'here' and 'there' and the potentiality of what there is yet to realise, 'here' and 'there' are focus not fact. There is no 'there', there is only 'here' because 'here' is "I Am." Once you are 'here' everywhere is 'here'.

Entertaining two opposing concepts would be classed as integration so I believe it's possible to entertain the notion of self and no self, but what I have suggested is where is there a sense of I AM awareness .

While typing our posts is one aware of no self at the same time? Is one aware of what they are beyond the mindful universe at the same time as one is sitting on the toilet contemplating the meaning of life?

The actuality I would say is that self and no self exist depending solely on awareness . Awareness of what? Awareness of self? The absence of self?

To be aware of self to then renounce that very self is where I see the waters muddied ..

How can self renounce self when self raises the notion . To entertain the notion that no self has raised the notion would just re open the door to perhaps both self and no self raised the notion or even better still that there is no self or no, no-self and nothing actually arises, what seemingly arises has always been there lol .

If we potentially entertain every opposing concept within our mind then scrambled eggs comes to mind .

I think there is a structured reason for why we entertain / believe what we do . Is it right what we believe, can it be right and wrong at the same time . I suppose it depends on the actual situation at hand at the time .

Opening up a can of worms


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi daz,

Sometimes I'll hear or be told that this physical self is illusionary. So, step back and evaluate or ask in what ways is this being referred to.

I get that being this person is a finite state. Meaning eventually will come to its conclusion, as all life forms seem to do in a way. There is that Spirit/ energy that goes on after this and that does seem to be the essence of life.

But, it seems a bit of waste to have the opportunity to experience this physical form only to denounce or feel one is a prisoner, of sorts, looking for the key to be free. Which to me is more in how one thinks, then how one is in body.

So yes, can relate that the realizations do not nullify the existence of one self.
Just in how It is related to, I suppose.

I understand that getting the context clear regarding what is being referred too is paramount .

I think there are many ways to perceive what is real and what is illusory regarding all aspects of physicality .

What some point to is that only the Self that is beyond the mind-body is real so everything of the mind that includes physicality is illusory .

What I would say to that is that the concept of what is real and what is illusory must come from the intellectual field of the individual .

That individual that is supposedly illusory .

So we have potentially an illusion pointing to what's real .

The same applies to those that perceive the physical reality as a dream and all the dream characters are not real .

The dream character that is of the dream cannot know what is real because one is of the dream .

Dream characters, illusions, and life that are no more than just stories are just ways in my eyes to water down the experiences had .

Like said, I believe just because one has a lifetime as an individual and it is temporary doesn't make that experience to be illusory based ..

Beyond the so called illusory experiences there is no-one present that is real .


x daz x