The spiritual conversation is difficult, and therefore, skillful

[happy soul]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

That's a common misconception. Very often spiritual masters (assuming mastery) use different language but point to the same unspoken Truths - that's the beauty of spiritual practices when they are real - they are part of the ineffable Truth.

If you are talking about people on the spiritual circuit, or forums, yes some seem to contradict each other. But I wouldn't confuse that with the above.

BT

I think it depends on what you mean by 'spiritual masters use different language but point to the same unspoken Truths'.

They POINT to the same truths, ultimately, but often different teachers and masters disagree greatly.

J. Krishnamurti for example had a completely different view of things than Paramhansa Yogananda. I remember many years ago trying to figure out who was right. Now I know that BOTH perspectives are valid, although definitely contradictory.

Two different perspectives can indeed be contradictory but valid.

I agree with Gem that teachers and masters often have vastly different and unique teachings.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by happy soul

J. Krishnamurti for example had a completely different view of things than Paramhansa Yogananda. I remember many years ago trying to figure out who was right. Now I know that BOTH perspectives are valid, although definitely contradictory.

As I said:

Very often spiritual masters (assuming mastery) use different language but point to the same unspoken Truths - that's the beauty of spiritual practices when they are real - they are part of the ineffable Truth.

I can speak of the Masters I am familiar with - Jesus. Buddha. Rumi. Meister Eickhert, Longchenpa, Sri Ramana Maharshi, Rinzai, Hafiz, Kabir, countless others

Originally Posted by happy soul

Two different perspectives can indeed be contradictory but valid.

Yes, certainly, like if a cake is delicious or not. I am not talking about relative matters, I am speaking of the Absolute, that which is beyond all words and thoughts. The Spiritual Masters who Know God do not disagree on God even if the words they use to 'point' appear to use different parts of the dictionary at times. To think that Truth is divergent is to believe that it is false and not real. At the level of the intellect and ego, it may seem that way, but in Truth, all intellectual divergences are resolved. That is why it is timeless Truth, that is why there is God.

Originally Posted by happy soul

I agree with Gem that teachers and masters often have vastly different and unique teachings.

Congratulations.

BT

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I know your view is self concerned, its an important view to being open and self reflective through the ongoing process of yourself in the world, with others and navigating more in alignment with your own values as I see this. I don't see it as selfish, but I can see why it would appear to be this way. Self awareness all the same comes through the ability to notice as much as you can with where you are in yourself.

Yes, that is where I'm coming from, and as far as I can tell, it's the best way to of benefit to others.

The mind/body/spirit awareness is only as open to itself as it is open and aware and conscious of itself. So I see self aware is only a good as the one open to notice themselves ongoing and as deep as the reflection takes them. Some people are not open to themselves and don't know what they are doing because they don't have something within to meet be aware of more, more consciously, so we have a blindsight in process. Of course the awareness of more will reflect back to itself to know, but if others are not open to that, then the "playing out" can be very blinded and unnoticed to itself until something more is reflected to notice. So with regards to others I feel its important to understand this through your own self awareness and navigation and engagement.

Totally.

People come to know themselves in all manner of ways of this world. Whether through self awareness and life experience in each moment, or through spontaneous sudden experiences out of the blue.

I think these two go together. Self-awareness is continuous and 'revelations' are spontaneous and sudden.

There are so many ways of being and living in this world that can open things to notice yourself and more that is seeking you to notice in life itself. Your story highlights someone who became aware of his issue, and then, is able to, consciously maintain a correction point in himself as it arises in life or in his meditation practice. This is perfect to understanding deeper the end of old patterns and cycles each of us carry more complete. I know its potential in this way, and I know we can move as deep to end these things.

Yes and it is quite interwoven, like the example of a man who notices a long term grudge previously unseen within the overall general noise, but then perhaps (I merely speculate on the example) the man feels hatred toward the grudge and wants it to go away, so there is another emotional layer to it, and greater complexity is involved.

How you see yourself within yourself, plays a major role in how to be in the world also. I see myself as life/nature itself then I too can become all manner of ways to express and be as life and nature shows. I have choices then, but if I contain that life in myself to boundaries or limitations, then the real and true potential of myself and others, will be limited by those bounds.

I only see necessity for personal boundaries, but not in the 'who you are' sense.

I can find balance through all streams and build a bigger picture of self awareness and purpose of myself in the world in this way and express from that point of awareness of course. The potential points, will come down to deep trust to speak and be what life from within you wants, to open up what the "I" aware can become deeper. Sometimes this can be viewed as "not the way" another might precede and be, but within all streams of life, acceptance of all ways can build a deeper awareness of how I need to be in the world, but allowing and moving through it all more open to what is.

The way I put it is, there is just a fact: 'this' is how it is. It is noticed first and the illusion that we choose to accept or reject; allow or disallow comes after. In this way I take things factually as best I can, so when I talk about accepting/allowing, I really mean the absence of rejecting/resisting.

Discerning intervention is a skill in and of itself. I try to look at each situation more as it arise to know the discernment of action or inaction, there is a deeper listening that involves more than just listening to oneself alone in this way and there is a great skill in being in trust to intervene as one needs to in this way of listening. Sometimes looking in, it may appear to be unkind, intentional, but I think understanding what is carried within most people, conditioned, repressed, unknown can arise in ways that will sometimes inflict without cause other than the cause of itself needing to arise and express itself. And sometimes this can be a good thing to clear out the channels to open another way of being. The unlocking of itself to show more within itself. If each person is taking personal responsibility for their own feelings, it supports this situation I am mentioning, sadly not all are this self reflective especially through wounds that haven't mastered as their own wounds to heal. I tend to learn through others to support my own self awareness but that is just me of course. I guess when you understand pushing through your own bounds or containment with total acceptance, then this naturally allows for others to be as they are and you as well.

I think this is right as far as I understand it. The way I think about it is make a space which brings about conditions that are conducive to healing...

In the end, being a presence more clear and open and aware more complete of him/herself is ideally the ultimate, so we only have ourselves to find that that point as. Life is an ongoing learning process of deepening into many aspects that we come to know. So what I know and understand has to become its own lead in this way. So yes self aware/self concerned/self navigated.What other life is doing and being ( I can be aware more consciously of them as part of my own engagement)is entirely up to them.

Yes, The self-determination is essential, so better not to be 'influential', but perhaps open doors to wider possibility if one can.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by happy soul

Thanks for sharing this very insightful observation.

I agree with you.

And you yourself always seem to demonstrate the skill you're referring to in your posts, and profoundly so.

Thank you for your kind words.

Intellectual intelligence is useful on the spiritual path, as the Dalai Lama has said. It can also present unique obstacles however. I'm reminded of a teaching from the Tao Te Ching: 'Why are the people hard to govern? Because they are too clever.'

Intellect, as all things, can be used in fear or in love. It can be engaged in wisely or unwisely.

Indeed society seems to be based in knowledge, but not so much in wisdom.

Consider non-human life on earth. Its simplicity and 'lack of intelligence' (to put it poorly) is surely partly responsible for its spiritual excellence.

Indeed human intellect may be humankind's greatest enemy, and with the great technology these days, could possibly mean our extinction.

Of course, everyone knows that Albert Einstein invented the nuclear bomb. Definitely an example of extreme intelligence being dangerous.

Well, Einstein just found out how mass is equal to energy, and produced that knowledge. Others used the knowledge unwisely.

On the other hand, intelligence may be the remedy to our problems. Used wisely and in love, it could possibly solve the problems we face as a civilization.

Indeed, wisdom is required, and that can't be taught in the way knowledge is.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by blackraven

The spiritual conversation is indeed difficult and requires much awareness of both self and the audience to which one is addressing. Spirituality is uniquely personal and because of that, it’s sometimes hard to put it into words that others understand or can comprehend with their own context of experience.

First problem is I have to define what spirituality is for myself.

Yes. No one else can define it.

Perhaps I can’t define it, because it exists at a deeper emotional, felt level.

It then is an intimate dance when coming forward on a forum with what I might believe are other like-minded persons. But how can that be? No two people can think alike or experiences alike. Sometimes it may feel futile, but that’s only if one doesn’t care to open up conversation to other’s experiences and truly listen, learn and accept. But in the end, there remains my own personal life experiences in the arena of spirituality, which again, is hard to define. Yet, I do gain insight from sharing because there is feedback and it allows me a brief view of other’s spirituality and what that means to them.

True, in conversations we deal with meanings and not truths, and the sharing is more like communing in our respective yet mutual lives.

It’s a one of those touchy topics because it’s the whole of one’s life experiences all wrapped up into one mind and one mindset. It then becomes subject to judgment, which is why it’s advised to share only what one feels comfortable with. It’s odd to me that judgment enters into a conversation about what spirituality is for individuals. Some people think it’s universal or can be defined categorically, but in all actuality, it can’t.

Yes, 'it is' prior to explanation.

I can share my paranormal experiences in that area of the forum, but again it’s a story telling thing that others either believe me and relate or they don’t and form an opinion.

I guess on forums thick skin must be developed. I can’t care what others think or perceive of my personal and private experiences. Equally so though, because I protect myself like this I also have the insight to protect other’s definition of spirituality as well. Mutual respect can be achieved, but again, it’s a delicate dance. As pointed out earlier “you” statements automatically put me on defense because I don’t have to justify my life experiences or why I’m here. It’s all I know and it’s as real as I get, so “you” statements just get thrown out and I tend to move on to listeners and respecters.

Points well made. Indeed I talked about coercion to disclosure, and 'you language' (when less than complimentary) can only create defensive positions. From such a position one is coerced into disclosures about themselves to refute untrue personal assertions.

I extracted the following from the Metta Sutta because to me it seems a most constructive way:

So with a boundless heart Should one cherish all living beings;
Radiating kindness over the entire world:
Spreading upwards to the skies, And downwards to the depths;
Outwards and unbounded,
Freed from hatred and ill-will.

Gem, You talk about skillfully navigating the spiritual discussion.
As you reference the 'you language' you used in a reply to me, I can't help but think the metta quote is directed at me also.

If you recall when we first started communicating I asked you to come forth with your experiences. Not to coerce, but because I was in the understanding that exactly that was what you wanted to talk about as per your initial post in the satipatthana thread.

Your own sidetracks within that thread made me question my observations and expectations I had in the beginning of the thread. Still no harm done. Only when repeated questioning was met with a woo is me demeanor added to a conversation which in my view had little to do with the satipatthana did I use less flattering language.
You can call it what you will. I call it dutch directness. If you would be so kind to follow that link you will see that I don't necessarily attack you or try to coerce you, Just that from my cultural background it is common to call things out as we see them which seem to freak foreigners out a little.

Yes I could have handled that conversation differently, but I didn't. Because I felt and still feel there is an opportunity for both of us to learn from it.
If I didn't care, I wouldn't be engaging in a conversation with you in the first place.

I don't hate you, I certainly don't wish you ill will.
But you may think whatever you like..

With Love
Eelco

[Gem]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Gem, You talk about skillfully navigating the spiritual discussion.
As you reference the 'you language' you used in a reply to me, I can't help but think the metta quote is directed at me also.

I only speak in a general sense and there is nothing personal.

If you recall when we first started communicating I asked you to come forth with your experiences. Not to coerce, but because I was in the understanding that exactly that was what you wanted to talk about as per your initial post in the satipatthana thread.

I made posts on said thread as far as conditions allowed and some of these were fairly in depth.

Your own sidetracks within that thread made me question my observations and expectations I had in the beginning of the thread. Still no harm done. Only when repeated questioning was met with a woo is me demeanor added to a conversation which in my view had little to do with the satipatthana did I use less flattering language.
You can call it what you will. I call it dutch directness. If you would be so kind to follow that link you will see that I don't necessarily attack you or try to coerce you, Just that from my cultural background it is common to call things out as we see them which seem to freak foreigners out a little.

Indeed. I find you very kind.

Yes I could have handled that conversation differently, but I didn't. Because I felt and still feel there is an opportunity for both of us to learn from it.
If I didn't care, I wouldn't be engaging in a conversation with you in the first place.

I don't hate you, I certainly don't wish you ill will.
But you may think whatever you like..

With Love
Eelco

I don't think these things, and all indications only evidence your good-will.

[hallow]

Originally Posted by n2mec

All the more one should seek A true spiritual teacher/guru, any other source would just leads to disaster and/or postpone any real spiritual goal.

Not necessarily a skill, but the inherent ability to discuss from the soul exclusively.

in a way i don't like to admit to but i been looking for someone to help me out on journey. But have yet to find one who will undiscriminatly guide i have always felt a good teacher will adapt a way for their students to learn. Honestly i don't know what direction i am going at this point i am just following my path the best i can. My flaw is i tend to pick out what isn't genuine. I don't expect genuine to be kind and gentle 100% of the time.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Gem

It probably semantic and void without context, but making judgments (being judgmental) and making discernments are two different things. The former places a value judgment on a person, and the latter is knowing what's for the best.

That's useful for personal differentiation and I get that. Actually, judgment can be either judgmental or discerning, though...and I like that it is nuanced in that way.

Well, as long as one feel and safe comfortable to do so, and they are not coerced, then all good.

Probably because dropping the facade and being who you are is terribly disruptive to social identity structures. That really rattles cages, but not because you did anything particularly affronting (you'll still be seen as the villian though).

True. It's part of skillful navigation of the journey no doubt. There's no pleasing everyone but if someone has taken it personally to the point they don't respond...then unfortunately I have no opportunity to directly address it with them further, either. If someone is affronted but responds, I can respond to where I have not (for them) skillfully addressed it. It's hard to do otherwise on a forum at times, when folks are at many diff places. And yet...I think rattling of cages will occur when we are trying to move forward on our journey...it's probably inevitable.

I think kindness is an intent we call good will. Self awareness is like knowing if this is true of your heart. It's a difficult one because we're humans with human needs, and people who say they don't do kind things with any needs of their own are probably not being entirely honest with themselves. Besides, it isn;t about not being needy. It's about being aware of the needs one has so that one doesn't unconsciously use other people to fulfill them. So self awareness, the primary concern with 'knowing what we do', is the kindest thing anyone can do.

There is truth in all you've said. It's not about being free of all "need" for human interaction and kindness..we're not robots. I feel we border on dehumanisation when we set that level of expectation for ourselves...it's not right-aligned IMO. Yet we do need to bring ownership and transparency, absolutely. Not deceit and denial and exploitation as you say, nor justification for these.

Yes indeed, the fact that person feels offended doesn't actually imply that another person was offensive - and vice versa.

True.

Well, there are grey areas...

Yes. It has to be safe, but that's not the same thing as a 'comfort zone'.

True. IMO we need to seek beyond the comfort zone whenever we can...not everyone may agree but for me it is a necessary thing.

Perhaps I was oversimplifying but IMO in general finding and voicing our truth is a part of the journey and becoming more aware. So even though the context and general consideration of others is always important, it is IMO generally still a good to speak your truth. Folks become more self-aware and more transparent, we learn how to communicate and listen and become more tolerant (the goal, anyway). Not of misalignment...we still need a centre. But of difference generally.

Peace and blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

I find this thread interesting because most posters seem to be talking about different things - some are talking about how sharing their personal intimate spiritual experiences is hard, some talk about being misunderstood or having their attempts to communicate complained about, some notice (correctly, in my opinion) that most things are spiritual, some are feeling sorry for themselves and others are just saying, hey that's great. There are others - I think Jyotir is talking about what true spirituality might entail and the importance of it, catsquotl is honest and forthright as usual.

My opinion:

I don't find "the spiritual conversation" difficult - sure, some people might scoff or disbelieve or have different opinions, that's par for the course, and it doesn't fundamentally matter (to me). What matters in my books is shared sincerity and sharing of experiences and the joyous, shared wish for each other to excel and achieve the spiritual goals that each person is seeking, to mutually support in this kinship. What also matters to me is honesty and people not leading others down the garden path, whether through conscious deliberation or plain ignorance, but hey we all do what we can. Isn't that what life is about? This shared unison of ideals and ideas, energy and compassion.

As to the rest of the "woe is me" comments, it's probably a matter of confusion. If this was a spiritual conversation, it'd actually be much, much easier in my books.

BT

BT hello there. I agree that the bolded above should not be consciously done, by our clear choice...of course many still do this unconsciously but there is free will to consider. That's why we have to impose a bare minimum set of collective legal and social standards of tolerance and acceptability.

On woe is me, I didn't perceive anyone as such. What I understood was that within the context of skillful communication and discussion, some or several of us have been admitting that it is or sometimes has been difficult. Moreover, that we may have offended folks without intending to do so and that there may be a variety of valid reasons that this occurs, some of which may arise simply out of the human spectrum of difference.

For myself, I have also stated that where this occurred, this can be seen as a failure in skillful communication that I can own. I do not intend this to be viewed as a subtle request for sympathy, LOL... so no worries

Also, it may be a subtle distinction in some ways, but I don't perceive the ideal to be a shared unison of humanity per se in any one area, but rather a natural resonance where it occurs via conscious evolution and choice. And that the natural spectrum of difference is good...even whilst needing boundaries for mutual full flourishing.

Peace & blessings
7L