What actually IS the science of I AM?

[Honza]

In a sense the mind does not go deep enough. Forgiveness is not about having a peaceful mind, but more about having a peaceful soul/conscience.

The day my conscience is clear I will be a free man. Mind and all.

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

there are many stories about travelers who wind up returning to where they'd
begun; examples include dorothy from the wizard of oz, and the bible story of
the prodigal son. it could be that what you're seeking is already present within
you... your higher self has been saving your seat for you.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Honza

Once you go beyond the mind is there ever any coming back? Can you become a person again? It sounds like enlightenment is an awful lot of commitment to something which cannot even be understood. I worry a lot about I AM because I feel it is a very powerful force which has no sentience. It is creation/destruction/silence/bliss etc. but is anyone actually there?

I'm not confident about I AM at all. Sorry.

I am going to approach this dialogue from a completely different perspective.

I have practiced "conscious sleep" for years as a way of knowing one's self in all three states --- deep sleep, dream state, and the so-called waking state. With this practice, one can remain fully aware in the deep sleep state and watch dream formation from start to finish as well as the transitions between the various states.

In the dream state, one naturally discovers the art of shifting attention from the little individual dream object to the dreamer while enjoying the "play". Hopefully, the analogy to your question is obvious.

This leads to meditation on the final question in your post, "Is anyone there?", and that in itself is an illuminating meditative process.

For me at least, this practice answered all the questions that you are raising since those questions commanded my attention as well at one time.

EDIT: What inspired me to proceed along these lines was the Hermetic Principle ("As above, so below") with its scriptural parallel ("Man is made in the image of God"). The dream process, whereby the one becomes many with frequent entanglements at least initially, facilitated increased understanding of Life for me. However, I am fully aware that what works for one may not work for another.

[Shivani Devi]

I'm just going to cut straight to the chase and please forgive my apparent bluntness, but it's the only way right now.

Ever since I joined here (and probably before that) you have had problems with the "I AM" and it's been a constant topic of consternation with you.

Suffice to say that if I had those same experiences, I would have sought an alternative explanation ages ago, and chose one that made me feel more comfortable and more in tune with what it is I actually believed in.

Now for the science.

Human beings are intellectual creatures...and like to pride themselves on this aspect of perception. They believe the seat of consciousness is purely mental or follow the route of Rene Descarte "I think, therefore I AM" when if such a concept like God actually could be rationalised in this way, it would severely limit the Divine into just an aspect of pure thought, wholly dependent upon who was thinking it and therefore, the experience of "I AM" is just mental gymnastics in this case.

I looked at the "I AM" and discarded that for "God IS" which included, but wasn't only limited to "I AM" or "You ARE" or "Something else IS" and went beyond what "Everything IS" into simply "God IS" and that requires no intellectualisation, no thought, just pure love, acceptance and a 'knowing' which is of holistic origin.

[markings]

Originally Posted by Honza

People say that I AM is a science of sorts. The gist of it is that within us there is the inner light and inner universal "I". That self love in fact rules the Universe.

My query is: is not the outer "you" a science as well? Or is not the higher "God" a science too?

I cannot get my mind round the idea that there is no scientific you out there. Or that scientifically nothing is actually higher than me.

Scientifically speaking I do not rule the Universe. In what scientific way Am I God?

Forget I. Forget AM. And especially forget I AM. Let it go.

I AM for a rational western mind is nonsensical at best and very toxic at worst.
There is no science behind nonsense.
There cannot be science behind faulty concepts and for a rational western mind I AM is faulty.

I think and assume that you are rooted in basically Christian thought. Find your peace in there. Whatever this I AM is supposed to be cannot improve on what you already belief. It is detrimental to you mental and physical health as evidenced by your long struggle with it without any resolution. Move on instead of going round and round and round.

Let it go. Call it stupid, idiotic, and turn your back towards it and look ahead to a better and brighter future for you.

[Honza]

You guys simply don't understand the importance of two fundamentally different religious beliefs clashing. For people in the West Yahweh was GOD HIMSELF. The foundation of reality. Nowadays that complete certainty in Yahweh has been smashed by I AM. How on earth can you expect me to just let is pass?

It is not a trite or irrelevant issue. The basic core of Western reality has been destroyed. I find it VERY important.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Honza

You guys simply don't understand the importance of two fundamentally different religious beliefs clashing. For people in the West Yahweh was GOD HIMSELF. The foundation of reality. Nowadays that complete certainty in Yahweh has been smashed by I AM. How on earth can you expect me to just let is pass?

It is not a trite or irrelevant issue. The basic core of Western reality has been destroyed. I find it VERY important.

Speak to a priest or pastor about it then. Maybe you require religious counselling.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Honza

You guys simply don't understand the importance of two fundamentally different religious beliefs clashing. For people in the West Yahweh was GOD HIMSELF. The foundation of reality. Nowadays that complete certainty in Yahweh has been smashed by I AM. How on earth can you expect me to just let is pass?

It is not a trite or irrelevant issue. The basic core of Western reality has been destroyed. I find it VERY important.

" You guys simply don't understand the importance of two fundamentally different religious beliefs clashing "



Honza it might be important to you but to most of us it's not important. I take the good from all religions and leave the rest behind, I am happy to blend them together and make my own mind up as to live my life. You seem to be tormented, constantly looking outside for answers, look inside instead and find your own way.
Like Shivani mentioned, mybe some counselling would help.

[markings]

Originally Posted by Honza

You guys simply don't understand the importance of two fundamentally different religious beliefs clashing. For people in the West Yahweh was GOD HIMSELF. The foundation of reality. Nowadays that complete certainty in Yahweh has been smashed by I AM. How on earth can you expect me to just let is pass?

It is not a trite or irrelevant issue. The basic core of Western reality has been destroyed. I find it VERY important.

You do not even have to at East and West to see two fundamentally different religious beliefs clashing.
In Christianity itself we have the idea of the emanence of God and/or the immanence of Him. The latter is called mysticism and because it is an alternative to the former which is the traditional Church teaching it is condemned as heretical.
You can chose one or the other, possibly depending on circumstances, but you should not set one up against the other. They are both equally valid views of our existence. There cannot be a debate about them in order to declare winner and loser as you seem to wish.

You want the mystical ideas to lose - for everyone.
That is not going to work. You can only make it to lose for you by walking away from it. Is that not good enough?

[Honza]

Originally Posted by sky123

Honza it might be important to you but to most of us it's not important.

Who is most of us? Most of the people here at SF? I know my Dad who was a Christian found the clash difficult. Most Westerners tend to keep their heads down about the matter. Either that or embrace the Eastern spirituality.

To me it is like my core reality has been shaken. So I investigate the issues at stake. You are welcome to avoid my ramblings.