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  #1  
Old 09-12-2017, 10:47 PM
Imzadi Imzadi is offline
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Question What is Direct Experience?

I have come across this term in relation to Buddhism here in the forum and was wondering what it means. And what exactly is the direct experience referring to? Is it possible to describe it?

I think in Christianity, when people speak of direct experience, it is usually in relation to their relationship with God. As for myself, the best that I can attempt to describe my direct experience of God is an innate and sublime sense of understanding, oneness, love, and joy. However, those words fall short of what is not really possible to describe using the conceptual mind, because the phenomena seems to be beyond thoughts. It can be experienced I suppose, but can't quite be captured or labeled.

I must confess, aside from rudimentary knowledge of the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path, I am mostly ignorant to the various schools and teachings of Buddhism. There is a oneness/unconditional love that springs from the core my Being (core of all Beings also) that I call God or Buddha Nature, but perhaps I may not be using the term Buddha Nature correctly. And within this Oneness, I See GOD/Buddha Nature in all things, but more accurately, I see and actualize my SELF in all things as the ONE SELF. I must underscore that this experience is not merely springing from a conceptual level. I.E. Not the brain attaching to thoughts and ideas, but another seemingly transcendent and vast and infinite intelligence and presence altogether beyond thoughts and ideas that eternally expands in exquisite motion in all directions and in all dimensions. (There really are no words and the more I try the more weird and confusing it sounds.)

Anyways, I digress. Everyone who regularly shares in this forum seems to be very well verse in Buddhist practice and doctrine. Is my experience similar to something that you may have experienced and/or continuously experiencing? Again, I like to put emphasis that I am speaking of an experience as oppose to a theoretical concept. And is my experience as described to the best of my ability even relate-able within a Buddhist context or am I barking up the wrong religion?

What is your direct experience and can you please describe it? As usual I understand there may be many varying thoughts and opinions, but I hope we can all share kindly and respectfully. Thank you!
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  #2  
Old 09-12-2017, 11:06 PM
blossomingtree blossomingtree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imzadi
I have come across this term in relation to Buddhism here in the forum and was wondering what it means. And what exactly is the direct experience referring to? Is it possible to describe it?

I think in Christianity, when people speak of direct experience, it is usually in relation to their relationship with God. As for myself, the best that I can attempt to describe my direct experience of God is an innate and sublime sense of understanding, oneness, love, and joy. However, those words fall short of what is not really possible to describe using the conceptual mind, because the phenomena seems to be beyond thoughts. It can be experienced I suppose, but can't quite be captured or labeled.

I must confess, aside from rudimentary knowledge of the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path, I am mostly ignorant to the various schools and teachings of Buddhism. There is a oneness/unconditional love that springs from the core my Being (core of all Beings also) that I call God or Buddha Nature, but perhaps I may not be using the term Buddha Nature correctly. And within this Oneness, I See GOD/Buddha Nature in all things, but more accurately, I see and actualize my SELF in all things as the ONE SELF. I must underscore that this experience is not merely springing from a conceptual level. I.E. Not the brain attaching to thoughts and ideas, but another seemingly transcendent and vast and infinite intelligence and presence altogether beyond thoughts and ideas that eternally expands in exquisite motion in all directions and in all dimensions. (There really are no words and the more I try the more weird and confusing it sounds.)

Anyways, I digress. Everyone who regularly shares in this forum seems to be very well verse in Buddhist practice and doctrine. Is my experience similar to something that you may have experienced and/or continuously experiencing? Again, I like to put emphasis that I am speaking of an experience as oppose to a theoretical concept. And is my experience as described to the best of my ability even relate-able within a Buddhist context or am I barking up the wrong religion?

What is your direct experience and can you please describe it? As usual I understand there may be many varying thoughts and opinions, but I hope we can all share kindly and respectfully. Thank you!

Hi Imzadi!

A few thoughts and offerings

1. You are beautiful and I've often noticed your beautiful presence around - thank you for that, it's very nice
2. Most on this forum are probably not the most seasoned Buddhists and there are sometimes misinterpretations - that is why I encouraged someone somewhere else if they want more Buddhist discussions to go to Buddhist forums where you are probably going to find a more well rounded discussion and possibly more congruence in the finer details. The people on here are nice and well intentioned though
3. Having said that you are not interested in the technicalities per se (yay!) so we can go around to addressing your more pertinent points:

Is my experience similar to something that you may have experienced and/or continuously experiencing? Again, I like to put emphasis that I am speaking of an experience as oppose to a theoretical concept. And is my experience as described to the best of my ability even relate-able within a Buddhist context or am I barking up the wrong religion?

What is your direct experience and can you please describe it?


Firstly, there are a number of established and valid traditions within Buddhism today. These include Theravadan, Tibetan, Zen. Points of emphasis may differ slightly within these but the ultimate realization in these schools (if attainable) does not differ.

That being said, what you share sounds infinitely familiar and I would say that whilst you may not found the same type of words used in Theravada or Tibetan schools, you may find some congruence in word usage in the Zen Buddhism sect. (not saying that the experiences differ, but different systems may utilize different words/emphasis of culture)

Buddha is a good term for what you experience, in my opinion. Thank you.

BT
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  #3  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:32 AM
sky sky is offline
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One who sees the Dhamma sees me.

One who sees me sees the Dhamma.

O monks and wise men, just as a goldsmith would test his gold by burning, cutting and rubbing it, so must you examine my words and accept them, not merely out of reverence for me.

My teaching is not a philosophy. It is the result of direct experience...
My teaching is a means of practice, not something to hold onto or worship.
My teaching is like a raft used to cross the river.
Only a fool would carry the raft around after he had already reached the other shore of liberation.

If you were to follow the Dharma purely out of love for me or because you respect me, I would not accept you as disciple. But if you follow the Dharma because you have yourself experienced its truth, because you understand and act accordingly - only under these conditions have you the right to call yourself a disciple of the Exalted One.

Direct experience in Buddhism is simply... to know for oneself.
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  #4  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:05 AM
Eelco
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Direct experience in my understanding/experience is the awareness of what is happening now. When I followed a guru around some 20 years ago. I felt an abundance of love when I was near her. I filed that experience away as finaly being able to have an object(the guru) as a place of reverence where I could project all my desire for devotion to. I guess that's an experience that would be similar to yours.

Since my vipassana retreat 4 years ago. Mahashi style noting as taught by Ajaan Tong Sirimangalo direct experience is much more direct.
Instead of projecting what feels like boundless love It's more a deconstruction of experience. In meditation, either walking or sitting I try to synchronize my thinking with my experience of all the sensations that make up one step or one breath. Softly noting raising(when my heel comes from the floor) lifting (when my foot comes completely loose from the floor) moving (when my foot drifts forward) lowering(when my foot descends towards the floor) touching (when my foot touches the floor) and pressing( when i shift my full weight(85kg) on my foot) then repeat with the other foot. Noting a step that way There are myriads of other sensations that make up one step. There is thinking happening, tension somewhere in the body, an itch, a sight, a sound. feeling my muscles pull around the knee and upper leg when my foot leaves the ground etc.

In sitting there's a similar train of observing experience.
There's the rising and falling of the belly which I use as an anchor, the same at the movement of the feet. softly noting rising and falling as the belly rises and falls.With that however one can experience the start of the rise, the middle, the end, the absence of movement all together.

In these kinds of direct experience I(hope) to have a chance to see through the experience and get a sense of reality as it is..

In theravadan buddhism. there exists a rather rigid system which you can use as a framework to label experiences and insights. The 3 characteristics, the 4 abidings(foundations of mindfullnes/sattipattana), 5 hindrances, 6 sense doors, 7 factors for awakening, the 8 fold path etc.

As you can imagine direct experience takes on a different meaning, when done like this.
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  #5  
Old 10-12-2017, 07:12 PM
Imzadi Imzadi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blossomingtree
Hi Imzadi!

A few thoughts and offerings

1. You are beautiful and I've often noticed your beautiful presence around - thank you for that, it's very nice
2. Most on this forum are probably not the most seasoned Buddhists and there are sometimes misinterpretations - that is why I encouraged someone somewhere else if they want more Buddhist discussions to go to Buddhist forums where you are probably going to find a more well rounded discussion and possibly more congruence in the finer details. The people on here are nice and well intentioned though
3. Having said that you are not interested in the technicalities per se (yay!) so we can go around to addressing your more pertinent points:

Is my experience similar to something that you may have experienced and/or continuously experiencing? Again, I like to put emphasis that I am speaking of an experience as oppose to a theoretical concept. And is my experience as described to the best of my ability even relate-able within a Buddhist context or am I barking up the wrong religion?

What is your direct experience and can you please describe it?


Firstly, there are a number of established and valid traditions within Buddhism today. These include Theravadan, Tibetan, Zen. Points of emphasis may differ slightly within these but the ultimate realization in these schools (if attainable) does not differ.

That being said, what you share sounds infinitely familiar and I would say that whilst you may not found the same type of words used in Theravada or Tibetan schools, you may find some congruence in word usage in the Zen Buddhism sect. (not saying that the experiences differ, but different systems may utilize different words/emphasis of culture)

Buddha is a good term for what you experience, in my opinion. Thank you.

BT

Hi BT :)

Thank you for your kind words and insights! While I do have a limited exposure to the Zen tradition, I am unfamiliar with other traditions and their vocabulary. I think you are right to say that regardless of the varying paths, practices, and traditions, the purpose is the same and points to "ultimate realization" as you mentioned. Perhaps what I call direct experience could be articulated more eloquently and intellectually if I have more knowledge of the Buddhist language which I am eager to learn. It would be wonderful to accurately express spiritual experience in a well establish system and tradition that can conceptually quantify what it is. If I can capture IT in proper words, then it would be like catching an elusive Butterfly in a net. But sometimes, I am not sure if the Butterfly can possibly fit in a net! <3
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  #6  
Old 10-12-2017, 07:15 PM
Imzadi Imzadi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
One who sees the Dhamma sees me.

One who sees me sees the Dhamma.

O monks and wise men, just as a goldsmith would test his gold by burning, cutting and rubbing it, so must you examine my words and accept them, not merely out of reverence for me.

My teaching is not a philosophy. It is the result of direct experience...
My teaching is a means of practice, not something to hold onto or worship.
My teaching is like a raft used to cross the river.
Only a fool would carry the raft around after he had already reached the other shore of liberation.

If you were to follow the Dharma purely out of love for me or because you respect me, I would not accept you as disciple. But if you follow the Dharma because you have yourself experienced its truth, because you understand and act accordingly - only under these conditions have you the right to call yourself a disciple of the Exalted One.

Direct experience in Buddhism is simply... to know for oneself.

Thank you so much for that, Sky. Your words and the way that you expressed them resonated perfectly! :)
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I AM that I AM and that's ALL that I AM.

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  #7  
Old 10-12-2017, 07:23 PM
Imzadi Imzadi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsquotl
Direct experience in my understanding/experience is the awareness of what is happening now. When I followed a guru around some 20 years ago. I felt an abundance of love when I was near her. I filed that experience away as finaly being able to have an object(the guru) as a place of reverence where I could project all my desire for devotion to. I guess that's an experience that would be similar to yours.

Since my vipassana retreat 4 years ago. Mahashi style noting as taught by Ajaan Tong Sirimangalo direct experience is much more direct.
Instead of projecting what feels like boundless love It's more a deconstruction of experience. In meditation, either walking or sitting I try to synchronize my thinking with my experience of all the sensations that make up one step or one breath. Softly noting raising(when my heel comes from the floor) lifting (when my foot comes completely loose from the floor) moving (when my foot drifts forward) lowering(when my foot descends towards the floor) touching (when my foot touches the floor) and pressing( when i shift my full weight(85kg) on my foot) then repeat with the other foot. Noting a step that way There are myriads of other sensations that make up one step. There is thinking happening, tension somewhere in the body, an itch, a sight, a sound. feeling my muscles pull around the knee and upper leg when my foot leaves the ground etc.

In sitting there's a similar train of observing experience.
There's the rising and falling of the belly which I use as an anchor, the same at the movement of the feet. softly noting rising and falling as the belly rises and falls.With that however one can experience the start of the rise, the middle, the end, the absence of movement all together.

In these kinds of direct experience I(hope) to have a chance to see through the experience and get a sense of reality as it is..

In theravadan buddhism. there exists a rather rigid system which you can use as a framework to label experiences and insights. The 3 characteristics, the 4 abidings(foundations of mindfullnes/sattipattana), 5 hindrances, 6 sense doors, 7 factors for awakening, the 8 fold path etc.

As you can imagine direct experience takes on a different meaning, when done like this.

Thank you, Eelco, for sharing your experience, insights, and suggestions! I think I will research more about the Theravada system. It would be nice and helpful to have a framework to further label and capture conceptually the experience. The analogy I used earlier was using the net (teachings/concepts) to capture the Butterfly (direct experiences) so that it can be intellectually articulated. I also resonated with what you said about seeing through "the experience and get a sense of Reality As It Is" because from my understanding, many spiritual experiences are temporal. Perhaps they merely serve as doorways and glimpses to Reality As It Is. Can seeing Reality As It Is be conceptually quantified and articulated or is it another "experience" (for the lack of a better word) that can solely be understood or alluded to? Can IT be captured? Is "emptiness" the best word we can use to describe and capture Reality As It Is? Can you please articulate to me how you experience and describe Reality As It Is? To be honest, my cognitive abilities are not the sharpest and it takes me a while to absorb certain ideas so I hope you can be patient with all my many questions. Thank you kindly. :)

P.S. Can "Boundless Love" as you mentioned or "Oneness" as I experience it be Reality As It Is? Not as something to be projected, acquired, or fixated upon like a mental or emotional object, but something that Reality Is in and of Itself that can be revealed when all else drops away?
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Last edited by Imzadi : 10-12-2017 at 09:23 PM.
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  #8  
Old 11-12-2017, 10:32 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imzadi
I have come across this term in relation to Buddhism here in the forum and was wondering what it means. And what exactly is the direct experience referring to? Is it possible to describe it?

In Buddhism there isn't much in regard to experience per-se, but there is much to do with insight into the nature of experience. It's temporal nature, change, impermanence. Understanding the nature of experience one realises the futility of clinging, craving, and thus settles in the equanimity of their awareness undisturbed by things in passing.

Quote:
I think in Christianity, when people speak of direct experience, it is usually in relation to their relationship with God. As for myself, the best that I can attempt to describe my direct experience of God is an innate and sublime sense of understanding, oneness, love, and joy. However, those words fall short of what is not really possible to describe using the conceptual mind, because the phenomena seems to be beyond thoughts. It can be experienced I suppose, but can't quite be captured or labeled.

Yes, nothing at all can be captured.

Quote:
I must confess, aside from rudimentary knowledge of the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path, I am mostly ignorant to the various schools and teachings of Buddhism.

That's orite, it isn't a knowledge game anyway. It an insight that enhances wisdom and the compassion of loving kindness.

Quote:
There is a oneness/unconditional love that springs from the core my Being (core of all Beings also) that I call God or Buddha Nature, but perhaps I may not be using the term Buddha Nature correctly.

It's good enough.

Quote:
And within this Oneness, I See GOD/Buddha Nature in all things, but more accurately, I see and actualize my SELF in all things as the ONE SELF. I must underscore that this experience is not merely springing from a conceptual level. I.E. Not the brain attaching to thoughts and ideas, but another seemingly transcendent and vast and infinite intelligence and presence altogether beyond thoughts and ideas that eternally expands in exquisite motion in all directions and in all dimensions. (There really are no words and the more I try the more weird and confusing it sounds.)

Yes you sound sillier the more you say teeheehee.

Quote:
Anyways, I digress. Everyone who regularly shares in this forum seems to be very well verse in Buddhist practice and doctrine.

I think I am but then others say I'm wrong. Such is the knowledge game, I'm afraid.

Quote:
Is my experience similar to something that you may have experienced and/or continuously experiencing? Again, I like to put emphasis that I am speaking of an experience as oppose to a theoretical concept. And is my experience as described to the best of my ability even relate-able within a Buddhist context or am I barking up the wrong religion?

I relate to it quite well, and I'll leave it to Buddhist scholars to reduce it all to what they know heehee.

Quote:
What is your direct experience and can you please describe it? As usual I understand there may be many varying thoughts and opinions, but I hope we can all share kindly and respectfully. Thank you!

I touched the space beyond space with pure metta outpouring.
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2017, 12:03 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote Imzadi...


' I see and actualize my SELF in all things as the ONE SELF '

Can you describe this ' self ' please, what is self ?
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Old 11-12-2017, 06:29 PM
Imzadi Imzadi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
Quote Imzadi...


' I see and actualize my SELF in all things as the ONE SELF '

Can you describe this ' self ' please, what is self ?

I will try my best. I think when human beings are infants, we don't have a conceptual sense of self because our brains have not developed the cognitive abilities and the synaptic connections to formulate thoughts. As we grow older our thinking process begins to mature and we begin to develop a conceptual sense of self. Thoughts and belief systems begins to occur such as "I am a boy" or "I am a girl" or "I am French" or "I am Christian" or "I am South African" or "I am Caucasian" or "I am spiritual" or "I am an atheist" or "I am a monastic" etc. etc. depending on our cultural conditioning, life experiences, and upbringing. Along with our physical aptitude and bodies, we begin to formulate a sense of self identity and profile of how we choose to see ourselves and our individual and unique identity.

I think the spiritual process that I continue to experience is a deconstruction of the conceptual self that I was identified with. One in particularly is the deconstructing of spiritual concepts and philosophies as well. That one was the most challenging because there are heavy attachments that I had placed on my spiritual beliefs and practices and I ruminated on a spiritual identity for many years spinning around in circles.

However, recently, there has been a change and the "spiritual" identity with all its thoughts, ideas, and system of beliefs becoming incredibly small and light as I became more and more aware of the SELF that exists beyond the thinking mind and its processes. I use SELF in capitalized letters to differentiate from what I had described as the temporal and finite conceptual sense of self.

But because of my Christian upbringing and also exposure to other religious literature, the words that I can use to describe this SELF is simply God or Buddha Nature. Of course I realize that those words are heavily loaded with ideological triggers because we all have our own unique relation and experiences attached to them. I think perhaps that is why spiritual literature is often times filled with parables, poetry, and metaphors. They point to the SELF in a unique and spiritual language that can be understood by those with an open heart and an innocent supple mind. The poetry of Rumi comes to mind whenever I think of the beautiful way he expresses this SELF. If only I should be so eloquent and prolific!

I had heard that in some Buddhist practice that practitioners are encouraged to investigate the SELF by using negation. What that means is that they would meditate on what SELF isn't instead of trying to capture what it is. But I digress, I can most probably go on and on. But with all that being said, I will now attempt to capture the Butterfly in my net of words in as simple and logical of a fashion that I can:

The ONE SELF I am referring to as experienced and understood at this moment is akin to a Primordial Universal Consciousness and Spaciousness that binds all things together. It is the Emptiness in which all things arise. It is also inseparable from all things and resides in all things. It can sometimes paradoxically be perceived as everything and nothing at the same time. The nature of this Primordial Consciousness is not only multidimensional and infinite, but even more so, it is BEYOND. The number of pi comes to mind when contemplating SELF. Sometimes I call it God or Divine Love. Other times I call it Buddha Nature. The remarkable and beautiful thing about SELF is that it is YOU and it is ME; there are no distinction and separation from anything. :)

Lastly, I like to add that perhaps religious and spiritual discourse is much like building a net to capture the Butterfly of the SELF (for the lack of a better word), but it can only go so far because it can never be caught. And perhaps sometimes you realize that you are indeed not the person trying to capture the Butterfly after all but rather, YOU(WE) ARE the Butterfly itSELF already infinitely free.

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