Is Hellfire A Bible Teaching?

Originally Posted by Dilchannan

So you want me to pull up scripture, okay then...

Matthew 5

22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

ALTER2EGO

You are using a Bible translation similar to the King James Version that made a translation blunder by inserting "hell fire" in place of the word "Gehenna" at Matthew 5:22. In the Bible the word "Gehenna" equates to permanent death aka "the second death"--which holds out no hope for a resurrection. Below is the same verse of scripture from other Bible translations.

VARIOUS TRANSLATIONS OF MATTHEW 5:22

New World Translation
"However, I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; but whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, "You despicable fool!" will be liable to the fiery Gehenna."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
"But I am saying to you, that everyone who will be angry against his brother without cause is condemned before the judge, and everyone who will say to his brother, 'I spit on you', is condemned before the assembly, and whoever will say 'You fool.' is condemned to the Gehenna of fire."

Weymouth New Testament
" But I say to you that every one who becomes angry with his brother shall be answerable to the magistrate; that whoever says to his brother 'Raca,' shall be answerable to the Sanhedrin; and that whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the Gehenna of Fire."

World English Bible
"But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council; and whoever shall say, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of the fire of Gehenna."

Young's Literal Translation
"but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire."

Originally Posted by Dilchannan

Matthew 10

28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

ALTER2EGO
This scripture is in reference to "the second death" in which there will be no resurrection from "hell" aka the common grave of mankind. You will notice that it makes no mention even there of a fiery torment and that it specifically uses the words "able to DESTROY". Destroying something or someone means you cause it to no longer exist. How in the world are you going to destroy something or someone by keeping it alive so it can feel the fiery flames of a supposed hellfire? Do you see the contradiction?

Originally Posted by Dilchannan

James 3

6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell.

I gave you a summary of what closely fits my belief. Hell is a real true place, a place so far from God's love and light, there will be gnashing of teeth, and wailing for ever. A place I will not go, thanks be forever and ever to our Lord and Savior who died for our sins.

ALTER2EGO:
You've came up with two more scriptures (James 3:6 and Luke 13:28), which have no connection whatsoever with either hell or Gehenna. James 3:6 speaks in symbolic language when it describes the tongue as being able to "set on fire the course of nature." Now, you explain to this forum how the literal tongue in one's mouth can create literal fire. That verse is simply stating that one's careless speech can create great discord among people. Below are scriptures that bears this out.

"If any man seems to himself to be a formal worshiper and yet does not bridle his tongue, but goes on deceiving his own heart, this man's form of worship is futile." (James 1:26)

"I said: 'I will guard my ways to keep from sinning with my tongue. I will set a muzzle as a guard to my own mouth, as long as anyone wicked is in front of me." (Psalms 39:1)

"There exists the one speaking thoughtlessly as with the stabs of a sword, but the tongue of the wise ones is a healing." (Proverbs 12:18)

Originally Posted by Dilchannan

[i]Now if you do not believe that Jesus did this for us, that is your choice, but if you say you believe in Jesus Christ, but that He did not die to save our very souls, than you believe in a false idea of God...For you believe Jesus Christ died for nothing, and that is a shame.

Luke 13
28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

Peace

ALTER2EGO:
The scripture at Luke 13:28 makes no mention of hell, Gehenna, or fire. So why are you even mentioning it here?

You are trying to bolster your claim that the false hellfire teaching is scriptural by presenting four verses of scriptures that you opine as meaning eternal hellfire. You ignore the fact that in order for the hellfire dogma to have any effect on the "soul" of the dead, this would require that the "soul" be aware of the burning torment. That's question #8 in my opening post, by the way. Thus far, nobody has taken the quiz. So I will ask you the same question here: What is your understanding of what the soul is?


I also encourage you to take the 8-question quiz that I presented in my opening post. Give me your answers to those specific 8 questions based upon the scriptures I used in my OP, and then I will get back with you and help you to reason on the scriptures some more.

Originally Posted by Dilchannan

The soul is who your are eternally, spirit is the place where God resides in you...

We are not made as animals were made. We are made in the image of God, and we are Re-Born in Christ. Animals are not.

Peace

So when one's body dies, what happens with the "soul"? Does the "soul" know that the fleshly body has died? Does the "soul" have consciousness to the point where it can feel the supposed fiery flames of hell? Do clarify.

Originally Posted by Reverend Keith

This is a repose of something I put on my site a long time ago.

While the infinite tortures of hell have been a popular motivational device for centuries, the time has come when this doctrine is far more of a liability than a help – if it ever was a help. It is a liability because modern people, unlike their ancestors, don’t shirk at the audacity of evaluating and judging the God of the Bible, and by any reasonable evaluation, a God who subjects anyone to infinite punishment is infinitely unjust.

Justice demands equality of crime and punishment. “An eye for an eye”. “Let the punishment fit the crime”. A finite human, by very nature, cannot commit an infinite offense, therefore, infinite punishment is unjust. Let’s take an example. Imagine the worst person who ever lived. Nominations vary, but Hitler is always a popular choice, so let’s use him as an example. Because of Hitler’s evil, millions of innocent people suffered horribly and died. So, let’s suppose that after death, Hitler is thrown into a hell of unimaginable suffering and torment. Let’s leave him there a while.


We come back in a billion, trillion years. Hitler, all this time, has been in excruciating agony – worse than any pain anyone can imagine. He has suffered more than the combined pain of everyone who ever lived – not only on earth, but (if there is life on other worlds) every inhabitable planet. His life on earth, during which his misdeeds occurred, is less than a microscopic dot in the long, long tale of his unimaginable suffering. The whole history of human suffering is insignificant compared to the suffering of this one man.

Can ANYONE presume that at this point – justice has not been satisfied – even for Hitler? He has paid completely out of proportion to his crimes. He has suffered so horribly that all other human suffering is a drop in the bucket. And yet, the doctrine of an infinite hell suggests that at this point, his suffering hasn’t even begun. He will continue to scream in guttural anguish – on into eternity, until there is nothing to remember of his entire existence but an infinity of suffering. Is this justice? No, it is infinite injustice. I venture that there isn’t a normal human being who would not have pulled even Hitler out of this kind of torment aeons before this point. Are we more merciful than God?

The idea of infinite suffering is infinitely unjust. The God of the Bible, if he insisted on such a thing, would sink below the most bloodthirsty God of the Aztecs in his cruelty. He would be so cruel and malicious that it would be a mark of the highest possible virtue to oppose him.

ALTER2EGO -to- REVEREND KEITH:
Your point is very well made using the example of Adolph Hitler. Even Joseph Stalin—alongside whom Hitler resembles a schoolboy—would not deserve eternal hellfire torment.

Some sources estimate Stalin was responsible for the deaths of 43 million of his own Russian people, many of whom were described as "'ordinary' Soviet citizens: workers, peasants, homemakers, teachers, priests, musicians, soldiers, pensioners, ballerinas, beggars." (Hiroaki Kuromiya, The Voices of the Dead: Stalin's Great Terror in the 1930s. Yale University Press, p. 4)

The instant the victims of Stalin and Hitler died, their pain and suffering ceased. Meanwhile, as you so adequately demonstrated, the pain of wicked people like Hitler and Stalin has no end--according the the hellfire dogma. That would boil down to God being more wicked than the people he's punishing for being wicked. Indeed, the hellfire dogma goes directly against what the Bible says in describing Jehovah as the epitome of love:

"He that does not love has not come to know God, because GOD IS LOVE." (1 John 4:8)


Being deprived of life forever, meaning no hope of a resurrection, is what the Bible holds out for the wicked--not eternal hellfire, as follows:

"For EVILDOERS themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth." (Psalms 37:9)

"And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; and you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be." (Psalms 37:10)


And I haven't even addressed the matter of the supposed "immortal" soul. In order for the person to suffer eternal torments in hellfire, their "soul" must be immortal. The Bible makes it clear that there's no such thing as an immortal soul. I brought that up in Question #8 on my opening post. Thus far, nobody seems willing to take the 8-question quiz.

The hellfire dogma, as I pointed out in my OP, was copied by the Roman Catholics from false/pagan religions and brought into the Roman Catholics' polluted version of Christianity.

I'm not sure how you would define 'the hellfire dogma', but we shouldn't be too quick to discount the notion of a suffering which, in the metaphoric language of the Bible--found in both Testaments--appears to feel to the human experiencing it, very much like fire.

Therefore, thus says the LORD, the God of hosts, "Because you have spoken this word, Behold, I am making My words in your mouth fire And this people wood, and it will consume them." (Jer 5:14)

"Is not My word like fire?" declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock?" (Jer 23:29)

"For everyone will be salted with fire." (Mark 9:49)
These are just a few examples. There are many more. The Bible abounds with references to torment for unrighteousness which bears similarities to fire, plague, wind and hail. Point is, I don't think you can pin the idea of hellfire on Catholicism, it is one of the most readily embraced doctrines by Protestants and Catholics, and to some degree in the Orthodox faith, though the latter appear to have a generally more lax concept of hell...and it is well supported in the Bible.

Would you accept hellfire as Biblical if it was shown that hell, as an experience (not a place), is actually identical to regeneration or spiritual birth? If this were the case, hellfire would,
1) support the notions of God's love, mercy and justice because hell, having a regenerative nature, is ultimately restorative and cannot be eternal;
2) serve justice perfectly as man is still morally culpable--he will be destroyed/die for his sin--while at the same time God turns man's death in rebirth and restoration;
3) remove one of tradition's most common criticisms of Christian universal salvation (one can do whatever one pleases, sin till the cows come home, and still get to heaven) via item "2" above.

Originally Posted by nancyboy

Would you accept hellfire as Biblical if it was shown that hell, as an experience (not a place), is actually identical to regeneration or spiritual birth? If this were the case, hellfire would,
1) support the notions of God's love, mercy and justice because hell, having a regenerative nature, is ultimately restorative and cannot be eternal;
2) serve justice perfectly as man is still morally culpable--he will be destroyed/die for his sin--while at the same time God turns man's death in rebirth and restoration;
3) remove one of tradition's most common criticisms of Christian universal salvation (one can do whatever one pleases, sin till the cows come home, and still get to heaven) via item "2" above.

ALTER2EGO -to- NANCYBOY:

I suggest you read my opening post in which I presented scriptural evidence that the word "hell" is a synonym for "the grave" of mankind. I also suggest you read the responses I gave others in this thread.

The scriptures clearly demonstrate that hell is nothing more than mankind's common grave. That reality makes your bargaining chip (quoted above) moot and valueless--particularly since nothing you're proposing is supported by the scriptures and amounts to your personal philosophy.

To put it simply, there's no incentive for me to accept the bargaining chip you're offering. I will not accept the word "hell" to mean anything other than what the Bible demonstrates it is: mankind's common grave.

Originally Posted by Alter2Ego

ALTER2EGO -to- NANCYBOY:

I suggest you read my opening post in which I presented scriptural evidence that the word "hell" is a synonym for "the grave" of mankind. I also suggest you read the responses I gave others in this thread.

The scriptures clearly demonstrate that hell is nothing more than mankind's common grave. That reality makes your bargaining chip (quoted above) moot and valueless--particularly since nothing you're proposing is supported by the scriptures and amounts to your personal philosophy.

To put it simply, there's no incentive for me to accept the bargaining chip you're offering. I will not accept the word "hell" to mean anything other than what the Bible demonstrates it is: mankind's common grave.

Hi alter2ego,

Thanks for your reply.
1. I've read all posts in this thread. Sorry, but your insistence on maintaining that hell = the grave is an old, worn-out argument that simply falls flat in light of the common knowledge that the king james translators--pretty obviously pushing their own eternal hell understanding into their work--used the word "hell" very liberally for hades or ghehenna. This was actually pointed out to you in a post by theophilus, and is a non-issue in considerations of the doctrine of hell fire.

2. It's clear from your posts, and from your last response to me, that you have formulated a concept and invested in it to the extent that the only argument you'll now entertain is agreement with your position. You seem to have no interest in pursuit of the truth, but in pursuit of your truth--and that based on a propositional formulation that has outlived its relevance.

I think you'll find that trying to force the hell=grave non-controversy into a meaningful discussion about the Christian doctrine of hell won't get satisfactory results, assuming that the goal here is the pursuit of truth, or at least the attempt to establish proper warrant for a particular point of view.

The doctrine of hell/concept of hellfire is drawn from a huge variety of sources throughout both Testaments of the Bible and to do the doctrine proper service you might consider serious study of the issue, then tackle it again. Good luck in your endeavors.

Originally Posted by nancyboy

Hi alter2ego,

Thanks for your reply.
1. I've read all posts in this thread. Sorry, but your insistence on maintaining that hell = the grave is an old, worn-out argument that simply falls flat in light of the common knowledge that the king james translators--pretty obviously pushing their own eternal hell understanding into their work--used the word "hell" very liberally for hades or ghehenna. This was actually pointed out to you in a post by theophilus, and is a non-issue in considerations of the doctrine of hell fire.

ALTER2EGO:
I tried to post two responses to THEOPHILUS hours ago but was unable to do so, because both of my answers to him contain weblinks. Because I'm new to this forum, I'm restricted from posting anything with weblinks until after I've posted at least 15 times. I'm getting close to 15 posts now, so I will be responding to THEOPHILUS shortly. I hope you will read my responses to him.

In the meantime, I encourage you to go back and read my response to DILCHANNAN. It's the very first post on page 2 of this thread. In my response to DILCHANNAN, I gave him a good explanation about the difference between "hell" and "Gehenna."

Originally Posted by nancyboy

2. It's clear from your posts, and from your last response to me, that you have formulated a concept and invested in it to the extent that the only argument you'll now entertain is agreement with your position. You seem to have no interest in pursuit of the truth, but in pursuit of your truth--and that based on a propositional formulation that has outlived its relevance.

ALTER2EGO:
I was under the impression that the "concept" that was "formulated" is the hellfire dogma. All I did in my Opening Post was present information regarding where the hellfire dogma came from, namely, the Roman Catholics copied it from pagan religions. Then in my OP I presented scriptures from the Judeo-Christian Bible that bring the hellfire dogma into question--from God's viewpoint. I concluded my OP with an 8-question quiz based upon the scriptures in my OP, so people will realize that their answers are based entirely upon what's said in those scriptures. Those scriptures present Jehovah's viewoint, not mine.

To my knowledge, nothing in my Opening Post or in any of my subsequent posts in this thread are expressions of my personal opinions. I routinely direct people to the scriptures when I post something in response to them. I do this so that people can see that it's not about me or about them, it's about what Almighty God says in his inspired Word, the Bible.

So since I've made no attempt in this tread to promote my personal opinions, but instead, I've repeatedly directed attention to the Bible, how does that amount to me "formulating a concept"?

Originally Posted by nancyboy

The doctrine of hell/concept of hellfire is drawn from a huge variety of sources throughout both Testaments of the Bible and to do the doctrine proper service you might consider serious study of the issue, then tackle it again. Good luck in your endeavors.

ALTER2EGO:
Perhaps you could present to this forum the "huge variety of sources throughout both Testaments of the Bible" by providing Bible book, chapter, and verse. And be sure and explain why you believe each of your presented scriptures are proof of eternal hellfire.