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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #81  
Old 05-02-2020, 11:51 PM
zorkchop zorkchop is offline
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lemex . . .

You are indeed right . . . in the sense of change more often than not involves a change in ballpark. People of like mind or like attitude or like perception tend to find those similar to themselves . . . and there are many benefits to and for this.

As for experience . . . a 2nd grader has yet to have the experience of high school graduation . . . and all in between. The same holds true in traveling the so-called Path . . . and it’s nice to have a good recognition of where one “is” so that those who might have taken a step or two ahead might be recognized, appreciated, and listened to.

We tend to understand ballparks through recognition of when we ourselves we’re in them . . . and if fortunate . . . we recognize how we got there . . . what it might take to get beyond . . . and if those experiments were successful . . . and where they led to. Having a “feeling” about where we are or where another is . . . like empathy . . . comes after the recognition.

Mind is a great ballpark to be in because people can trade and juggle and invent and horde and conjure mental theories and beliefs that may very hold beneficial within the mental realms . . . and while within the mental realms . . . it is folly for most to try and utilize that which is beyond mind while in the mental worlds. When in this position . . . one learns to live in both worlds . . . while leaning a touch more towards the spiritual . . . and too keep things rather quiet. Mankind has a history of exorcising those that do not believe as the status quo does.
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  #82  
Old 06-02-2020, 12:20 AM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Hi Moonie :)

I think in many instances we can cross dress opposites, for in one respect there is self and there also isn't it depends on context always doesn't it .

In regards to a dream it can be both real and unreal or illusory or not depending on it's nature ..

You can have a dream that is real if the dream is an actual dream, but when a dream is noted to be what other's refer to as a waking state then you haven't got an actual wakened state, you only have a dream.

This is where in my eyes it starts to go pear shaped because if it's all a dream then where is the wakened state experienced in order to make such a statement?

This is something Still_Waters and I have been touching on ..


x daz x

Hi God-Like,

Enjoy what you and Still_Waters exchange.

In this plane of existence there are contrasts. One reflecting the other.

As experienced may feel very real and is to the one experiencing it. The illusionary part to me is when it is thought that is all there is to it. Then later realize there is much more or I was mistaken. So, this may bring clarity as to the truth of the matter.

If I hold tight to my position and refuse to be open to other possibilities and or insights then seem being a bit narrow in my view and stuck in my mind.

This is what I can get out of the reference of illusion. Being tricked by myself and not seeing beyond self created illusions (set patterns/habits).

Not that it, whatever it may be,happened or is happening, but I either attempt to conform to my ways or dismiss it altogether. So in this way still dreaming in the sense that I create a world that I attempt to be the way I think it should be.

Life is not always like that is it?

So, what wakes one up? What brings it to ones attention that life is not always the way thought or wanted to be? Experiences lived in life. For through these am called to adjust and change as am able. Through this creates changes with in oneself and what may be thought. That is if open and willing to do so.

If not, then doesn't it seem can get stuck in the same patterns? Stuck reliving with in the mind experiences that have long gone by?

So, instead of taking responsibility can point fingers to blame others and even God for ones own doing. Stuck to not look beyond, but just see what one wants to or thinks should see. Unable to move on and embrace life fully. Is this not a bit illusionary?

Yes, without the possibility of growing, maturing, realization, and all that helps to break up self formed patterns and being aware of what all this brings, would not be aware of those habits that get me stuck.

Both can work hand in hand. Helping the self to grow and become aware. After awhile there is no division of the two ( thinking and experiencing) , but a meshing together that forms the life experienced here. In this sense it just comes to me as being. Which includes all that is lived and how I can best deal with it at the moment.

These are my thoughts at the moment.

Appreciate what you share
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  #83  
Old 06-02-2020, 08:36 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonglow
Hi God-Like,

Enjoy what you and Still_Waters exchange.

In this plane of existence there are contrasts. One reflecting the other.

As experienced may feel very real and is to the one experiencing it. The illusionary part to me is when it is thought that is all there is to it. Then later realize there is much more or I was mistaken. So, this may bring clarity as to the truth of the matter.

If I hold tight to my position and refuse to be open to other possibilities and or insights then seem being a bit narrow in my view and stuck in my mind.

This is what I can get out of the reference of illusion. Being tricked by myself and not seeing beyond self created illusions (set patterns/habits).

Not that it, whatever it may be,happened or is happening, but I either attempt to conform to my ways or dismiss it altogether. So in this way still dreaming in the sense that I create a world that I attempt to be the way I think it should be.

Life is not always like that is it?

So, what wakes one up? What brings it to ones attention that life is not always the way thought or wanted to be? Experiences lived in life. For through these am called to adjust and change as am able. Through this creates changes with in oneself and what may be thought. That is if open and willing to do so.

If not, then doesn't it seem can get stuck in the same patterns? Stuck reliving with in the mind experiences that have long gone by?

So, instead of taking responsibility can point fingers to blame others and even God for ones own doing. Stuck to not look beyond, but just see what one wants to or thinks should see. Unable to move on and embrace life fully. Is this not a bit illusionary?

Yes, without the possibility of growing, maturing, realization, and all that helps to break up self formed patterns and being aware of what all this brings, would not be aware of those habits that get me stuck.

Both can work hand in hand. Helping the self to grow and become aware. After awhile there is no division of the two ( thinking and experiencing) , but a meshing together that forms the life experienced here. In this sense it just comes to me as being. Which includes all that is lived and how I can best deal with it at the moment.

These are my thoughts at the moment.

Appreciate what you share

Hi Moonie, always nice to read your thoughts ..


Yes it's all based upon experience and contrast through realizing what we do . In your case there was an illusory understanding had based upon realizing something else that felt more real or true at the time . This encompasses the reflection and the comparison had doesn't it. This is for example how and why peeps can say that the self is illusory based upon the absence of self beyond mind, or that the personhood is an illusion based upon the experience of beyond the person. It's how we make sense of what we are and our reality ..

What can happen however is that what was known to be true that in some respect wasn't can equally come round full circle in regards to what is now known to be 'more' true isn't because of a further realization or reflection or comparison had ..

We spoke about absolute and relative truths before didn't we and I would still say that it is each to their own regarding how things are .

What could be regarded in some circles as the ultimate and the absolute could just reflect another drop in a bigger ocean couldn't it . Who is to say .

What I feel is beneficial regardless of how big the actual picture is and how many realizations there are to be realized, one can simply entertain a baseline foundation where one questions peeps who say this and that as an absolute truth .. The dream world as an absolute truth for example falls down pretty quickly when questioned .

It really is just a statement made based upon something that is referred too in a similar fashion to a night time dream . . It's a poor comparison had if a peep entertains notions of infinite comparisons and realzations to be had ..



x daz x
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  #84  
Old 06-02-2020, 10:04 AM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
Just wondered your thoughts.
If this is a dream, and Illusion - there is no death ever - why would God
care if someone killed another?
Wouldn't He know that they come back again and again?

I'm coming to Gen Beliefs more and more.

Creation just is, so life is continuous.

It’s without words or feelings that judge or interpret as ones mind does. So your asking seems more about your own personal design of ‘god’.

The wheel of life is all encompassing as all things are. Most people who have NdDe’s or many of them, will say, that the light is ‘a remembering’ transition, the light ‘reveals’ what seeks to be made ‘whole’. Everything in these ‘life ‘ review’ transitions let’s go and opens too this ‘all loving’ ‘all encompassing’ source that knows through ‘remembering’ what already is complete. The letting go whether alive or through death opens to this. ‘We keep’ things alive from this plane of existence through our own suffering, or in peace. Which is why ‘care’ from within and becoming peace with all things here and now, is really more important. All life is interacting, how ‘we’ interact and from where inside us determines the potentials within the whole.

In this view ‘we’ owe it to ourselves and other life.

Humans have built a wall of judgement and containment to deal with pain and suffering. In themselves and as others are. Everything this world is has been created through the nature of separation from ‘source’ . God has been created through our own view. Yet experience shows the light or source of creation is a unified field that naturally allows those passing through to merge back to source, their ‘baggage’ released, their essence of ‘wholeness remembered to let go of what their life has been. Unconditional love is part of this field, death is rebirthing, rebirthing is death..

If we look at each piece created through the totality of creation as creation is at any given moment, then we could say everything is responsible for what has amounted, too that point, all intersections of life are interacting continuously from the beginning, to this moment.

Creation is life. Life is happening in every way life is.

When you speak in ways that god is a he and say why would ‘he’ care, your humanising god.

Even as you say ‘if it’s a dream or illusion’, it’s more understanding that we as humans have created all this with regards to killing. We are the ones left with the repercussions of all things here on earth, when people are killed. Everything becomes an opportunity for us here on earth to bridge and build deeper awareness of all life as life is. As life can be.

The Buddhist understand the deeper nature of all things. That’s why it’s not just about illusions and doing as you wish without care. It’s about suffering and it’s about ‘not suffering’. One can liberate themselves from suffering, develop an attitude with awareness that through death all is revealed and reconnected, that it’s all an illusion, so ‘not ‘care’, not care about death or harm, but it’s through awareness of all suffering, you see that ‘we are all in this together’ so we are all affected by the whole life stream playing out. ‘We are all responsible in how we deal and intend for life in this moment of here and now.

Judgement is our game.

‘Source’ is not about care or don’t care, it’s just source as source is. It’s complete.

I’m not sure why god even comes into it in the way your suggesting.



In the end it’s only all your own thoughts playing out..

Where they play out from is defined through your own experience.

Mine so far is all in this..

My view is that I look at our ‘creation’ through an understanding, we ‘each’ suffer’ and that the potential of all life is that it ‘can end’ suffering, either through death or life, because ‘yes’ it’s all life continuously creating itself and life as life is. This doesn’t open me to ‘not care’ or see a god as ‘not caring’ but rather it is the nature of life as life is created as a ‘whole’.
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Last edited by JustBe : 06-02-2020 at 10:46 AM.
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  #85  
Old 06-02-2020, 12:37 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Hey :)

Yes mind encompasses our bundles of thoughts and the thought of I AM is foundational isn't it . This is why I can say this world is dreamy and illusory or real and true.

We can compare the waking state with the dream state with the spirit world with a universal mind experience with beyond that and that and that ..

You agree at a point there are no concepts of real or dreamy or illusory for there is only what we are that is beyond those mindful aspects ..

This however is why comparisons are always needed when we speak about a specific vibration or dimension because otherwise it literally becomes one dimensional and doesn't cater for the bigger picture ..

This is what I see happening with certain teachers and peeps who simply proclaim this world to be a dream without any comparison had that holds weight and the mind is used in ways and means to point to beyond it lol ..

If beyond mind is beyond the thought of I AM then even this comparison doesn't hold weight either because it's not a foundation lived or experienced, it is simply what you are without a thought of I AM .

This is why giving a true comparison to the dream world never comes ..


x daz x
'

I was pondering more on what you wrote -- especially the last part.

"If beyond mind is beyond the thought of I AM then even this comparison doesn't hold weight either because it's not a foundation lived or experienced, it is simply what you are without a thought of I AM ."

As Ramana Maharshi has pointed out, "that which is does not even say I AM", which seems to be in accordance with your concluding statement quoted above.
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  #86  
Old 07-02-2020, 01:34 AM
Moonglow Moonglow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
Hi Moonie, always nice to read your thoughts ..


Yes it's all based upon experience and contrast through realizing what we do . In your case there was an illusory understanding had based upon realizing something else that felt more real or true at the time . This encompasses the reflection and the comparison had doesn't it. This is for example how and why peeps can say that the self is illusory based upon the absence of self beyond mind, or that the personhood is an illusion based upon the experience of beyond the person. It's how we make sense of what we are and our reality ..

What can happen however is that what was known to be true that in some respect wasn't can equally come round full circle in regards to what is now known to be 'more' true isn't because of a further realization or reflection or comparison had ..

We spoke about absolute and relative truths before didn't we and I would still say that it is each to their own regarding how things are .

What could be regarded in some circles as the ultimate and the absolute could just reflect another drop in a bigger ocean couldn't it . Who is to say .

What I feel is beneficial regardless of how big the actual picture is and how many realizations there are to be realized, one can simply entertain a baseline foundation where one questions peeps who say this and that as an absolute truth .. The dream world as an absolute truth for example falls down pretty quickly when questioned .

It really is just a statement made based upon something that is referred too in a similar fashion to a night time dream . . It's a poor comparison had if a peep entertains notions of infinite comparisons and realzations to be had ..



x daz x

Hi daz,

Enjoy the exchange as well.

I don't feel the discussion in this thread is about absolutes as much as how things are perceived.

As reflected everyone seems to have his/her own take on it.

Some may come off a bit firm in the view point, while others may seem more free flowing.

Which for me reflects a bit in how what is presented gets understood and perceived.

So, if taken as being absolute or not, that is the way the one who may hold such position sees it, IMO. As you present.

I see life as more fluid and shifts and changes in what may manifest and unfold.

Simply, perhaps at times not so much, lol, it takes for me exploring patterns and habits. How I think. So that I become more aware of how I may perceive and understand what may come. Find a flow with it so not placing so much effort in trying to be this or that, but just be. This and that included.

So dreaming and waking play thier part. Through dreams can create, imagine the possibilities. Through being awake can bring focus upon tasks at hand. Dreams can inspire and bring to the wakeful part inspiration and exploration of working out what can be and how it may be perceived.

So, if we as physical beings experience or can experience such interactions, then isn't spirit as well? In this sense is there really a seperation or just different senses of focus with in the mind and consciousness?

In this way see life as both. How it is considered, cared about, or interpreted seems dependent on what I feel, believe, and hold to be beneficial or not.

So can go around comparing which is preferred, if one likes. In this what is one attempting to achieve? Or can be aware what each aspect of life and oneself brings and take it from there.

Thank you
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  #87  
Old 07-02-2020, 07:01 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemex
You may think I disagree with what you are saying but I don't. These thoughts are really powerful points, it is so strange I agree and say point on again. The dream is not a reality.

Yes, it's important to note that the dream analogy is based upon a dream that isn't lived as a reality ..

Things go a little pear shaped as mentioned before if one cross dresses platforms where the waking reality is made out to be a dream ..

A dream is a dream, a waking physical reality is a waking physical reality but of course there are similarities of both but there are also big fat juicy differences ..

The differences illustrate that the dream is not a waking reality otherwise we wouldn't know if we are awake to this reality pointing to what a dream is in comparison .lol.

(I wasn't under the impression that we were in disagreement here).


x daz x
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  #88  
Old 07-02-2020, 07:05 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Originally Posted by inavalan
Have you ever had a false awakening? You believe that you woke up, and go about your business as you do when you're awake, and only after some time you wake up from this and realize that that was still another dream.

You have no way to prove that this reality is more real than a dream.

Yes I have had this happen before, I have even turned my alarm off thinking I am awake but I am still dreaming to then say to myself that was weird and still be dreaming that it's weird

What becomes apparent tho is that we do eventually wake up don't we, we can't stay dreaming for days or weeks ...

At this point one can say I am truly awake and know that what happened prior to that point was a dream ..


x daz x
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  #89  
Old 07-02-2020, 07:15 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonglow
Hi daz,

Enjoy the exchange as well.

I don't feel the discussion in this thread is about absolutes as much as how things are perceived.

As reflected everyone seems to have his/her own take on it.

Some may come off a bit firm in the view point, while others may seem more free flowing.

Which for me reflects a bit in how what is presented gets understood and perceived.

So, if taken as being absolute or not, that is the way the one who may hold such position sees it, IMO. As you present.

I see life as more fluid and shifts and changes in what may manifest and unfold.

Simply, perhaps at times not so much, lol, it takes for me exploring patterns and habits. How I think. So that I become more aware of how I may perceive and understand what may come. Find a flow with it so not placing so much effort in trying to be this or that, but just be. This and that included.

So dreaming and waking play thier part. Through dreams can create, imagine the possibilities. Through being awake can bring focus upon tasks at hand. Dreams can inspire and bring to the wakeful part inspiration and exploration of working out what can be and how it may be perceived.

So, if we as physical beings experience or can experience such interactions, then isn't spirit as well? In this sense is there really a seperation or just different senses of focus with in the mind and consciousness?

In this way see life as both. How it is considered, cared about, or interpreted seems dependent on what I feel, believe, and hold to be beneficial or not.

So can go around comparing which is preferred, if one likes. In this what is one attempting to achieve? Or can be aware what each aspect of life and oneself brings and take it from there.

Thank you

Hey :)


Yes I agree no-one here on the forums is speaking in absolutes, I am speaking generally regarding those who teach this premise regarding the dream and make it out to be a matter of fact .

The reality as such which is their foundation for everything else said thereafter .

I think at times peeps don't understand that their foundation has a knock on effect to their whole belief system and it should reflect how they behave as a second nature .

This is where you see if one lives in accordance to their understandings of reality .

I wonder how peeps would behave if they believed without a doubt that this reality lived was dream based ..

Would peeps get irritated for instance by other's who are only dream characters?

Would they see themselves as a dream character only and that their master or their wife or kids were just dreamed up?

Could you really love something that was dreamy? Is the love expressed, dream love?

There are so many questions regarding the belief had and the consequences of that belief thereafter




x daz x
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Last edited by God-Like : 07-02-2020 at 08:33 AM.
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  #90  
Old 07-02-2020, 08:43 AM
ajay00 ajay00 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay00
It is the intent behind the action that is important. If a policeman shot dead a serial killer on the prowl, he is doing his assigned duty to maintain law and order, and his action is highly meritorious and virtuous.

A murderer who murders out of violent intent is obviously vicious and incurs demerit for himself.

Buddha reformed the serial killer Angulimala and turned him into a virtuous monk. Similarly, the author of the HIndu epic Ramayana, Ratnakara, was previously a dacoit and thief who was reformed by the holy company of sage Narada who he had planned to rob initially.


While it is a duty on the part of the soldier and policeman to act violently to perform their allotted duties, it also reflects a failure of the moral dimension of humanity to prevent the aggressor or criminal from coming into being owing to inaction due to complacency or ignorance.


"He who opens a school door, closes a prison". ~ Victor Hugo

Ethics, decency and morality are the real soldiers . ~ Kiran Bedi ( Magsaysay award winning lady police officer)
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