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  #321  
Old 16-02-2020, 08:26 PM
JustASimpleGuy JustASimpleGuy is offline
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By the way Mike and from a practical forum perspective, it's probably a good idea to refrain from the personal attacks. Frankly I don't care but someone else might or a mod might come across this thread.
__________________
"Research your own experience; absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own." ~ Bruce Lee

"Of a certainty the man who can see all creatures in himself, himself in all creatures, knows no sorrow." ~ Upanishads

https://tinyurl.com/y2mxr4s2 My YouTube Channel

JASG
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  #322  
Old 16-02-2020, 08:35 PM
MikeS80 MikeS80 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
But when we speak about the world reality perceived in reflection of I AM awareness even the perception had that is made sense of is conceptualised ..

I mentioned the baby getting sunburnt without entertaining a concept of what the sun is but it doesn’t stop what results in does it .

I understand that whatever is said about beyond mind or beyond I am is beyond conceptuality but life is life based upon what we experience and what we make sense of it .

I think at times this world of conceptuality is presented in ways to somehow discredit this life experience but if you get burnt regardless then what does that tell you lol ..


x daz x
I do not disagree with anything you said in this post. The feeling of the big I AM is our true/higher self. The small ego I am is the, I am this or that. Conceptualizing the Big I AM higher self to identify with is great because the Big I AM higher self is truth, and is how our small ego I communicates with it. Conflict and confusion arises when a person indentifies his or her small ego I with a concept, a concept that originally had the intent and purpose of going through/past/beyond the small ego I to the Big I AM true/higher self. Concepts are not for the small ego I to identify with.
__________________
I do not negate the world.
I see it as appearing in consciousness,
which is the totality of the known
in the immensity of the Unknown.

Read my post: Align yourself with the oneness of God/nature, align yourself with infinite abundance:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=133714

Also read my post:
The Quantum Physics of "God": A Self-Creating Universe or singularity:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=133802
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  #323  
Old 16-02-2020, 08:37 PM
MikeS80 MikeS80 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
By the way Mike and from a practical forum perspective, it's probably a good idea to refrain from the personal attacks. Frankly I don't care but someone else might or a mod might come across this thread.
Did you not say that individuality is an illusion? But whatever you say my lying hypocrite master.

Good the Mod will know what a lying hypocrite you are
__________________
I do not negate the world.
I see it as appearing in consciousness,
which is the totality of the known
in the immensity of the Unknown.

Read my post: Align yourself with the oneness of God/nature, align yourself with infinite abundance:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=133714

Also read my post:
The Quantum Physics of "God": A Self-Creating Universe or singularity:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=133802
Reply With Quote
  #324  
Old 16-02-2020, 08:56 PM
JustASimpleGuy JustASimpleGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
I agree if we speak about the forever changing perspective had but I am not sure what is unchanging that relates to this world reality .

I mean my realisation reflected that there is only what you are and that hasn't changed since my realisation but who is to say that something else happens further down the line and there is the realisation that God has a God and that God has another God?

The ocean becomes a drop and the drop becomes another drop in the drop when once one realised what they thought was the ocean .

So it's difficult to solidify the unchanging true vantage point in any given moment isn't it .


x daz x



Awareness is unchanging, at least to the extent I can determine. That's from 4 months to 61 years old. It's the exact same, unchanging.

Body has changed. Knowledge has changed. Emotions have changed. Memory has changed. Beliefs have changed. Pure non-dual awareness or consciousness is always the same. It just is. That's what is and only is. Nothing more, nothing less. It experiences without knowing, thinking, memory, belief. Thou art That.

By the way, that's one of the classic Vedantic proofs: The Five Sheaths.

https://youtu.be/rPtHCCT1SZM

One point of clarification. Jnana Yoga provides this knowledge and Raja Yoga provides the complementary experience.

You can find mention of the experiential aspect all over the place. Sadhguru, The swami, Eckhart Tolle, etc... They will all relate the unchanging nature of consciousness. We all experience it however most, the vast majority, simply aren't aware of the very nature of their own awareness. It's so very close yet so very far. It's so simple it's dismissed as nonsense. It does require diligent practice to experience and transform the knowledge into actual realization.
__________________
"Research your own experience; absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own." ~ Bruce Lee

"Of a certainty the man who can see all creatures in himself, himself in all creatures, knows no sorrow." ~ Upanishads

https://tinyurl.com/y2mxr4s2 My YouTube Channel

JASG
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  #325  
Old 17-02-2020, 02:15 AM
MikeS80 MikeS80 is offline
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I found some great information on ADVAITA VEDANTA:

brahman = Atman -
What then of the human self, the jIva? It is here that advaita comes up with the most radical answer, one that is unacceptable to all other schools of vedAnta. According to advaita, what is called the universe is in reality not other than brahman. Similarly, what is called the jIva is in reality, the Atman, which is also nothing other than brahman Itself. The real jIva is the Atman, which is unchanging, ever free, and identical with brahman. This is said on the basis of upanishadic passages where the Atman is explicitly equated with brahman. This equation of Atman with brahman is also explained by means of adhyAropa-apavAda. By sublating the superimposition of human shortcomings and attributes on the Atman, the pure Atman, the substratum, shines forth as brahman Itself. The mani-fold universe and the individual self, which considers itself bound, are both superimposed upon that Transcendental Reality which is brahman. Once the superimposition is understood for what it is, the individual is no more an individual, the universe is no more the universe - all is brahman.

This doctrine of advaita should not be misinterpreted to mean that the human self is in and of itself God, without any qualification whatsoever. SankarAcArya most emphatically asserts that such is not his intention. On the other hand, he is at great pains to point out that one who is desirous of moksha needs to overcome his human shortcomings in order to achieve full liberation. Sankara prescribes rigorous prerequisite qualities for the person who is to study vedAnta. These form the practical aspect of the effort to rise above and sublate the characteristics of the human jIva, in order to understand the Atman/brahman. The non-dual reality of the Atman is revealed to the intense seeker, as an experience that defies words. One might call it a mystic experience of brahman, in which to know brahman is to be brahman. Thus, rather than being atheistic or non- theistic, advaita vedAnta is meta-theistic: it points to the basic underlying Reality of all, including what humans call God, what humans call the universe, and what humans call human. This Reality is the unchangeable brahman.

Source https://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/ad-phil.html
__________________
I do not negate the world.
I see it as appearing in consciousness,
which is the totality of the known
in the immensity of the Unknown.

Read my post: Align yourself with the oneness of God/nature, align yourself with infinite abundance:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=133714

Also read my post:
The Quantum Physics of "God": A Self-Creating Universe or singularity:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=133802
Reply With Quote
  #326  
Old 17-02-2020, 02:21 AM
MikeS80 MikeS80 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS80
I found some great information on ADVAITA VEDANTA:

brahman = Atman -
What then of the human self, the jIva? It is here that advaita comes up with the most radical answer, one that is unacceptable to all other schools of vedAnta. According to advaita, what is called the universe is in reality not other than brahman. Similarly, what is called the jIva is in reality, the Atman, which is also nothing other than brahman Itself. The real jIva is the Atman, which is unchanging, ever free, and identical with brahman. This is said on the basis of upanishadic passages where the Atman is explicitly equated with brahman. This equation of Atman with brahman is also explained by means of adhyAropa-apavAda. By sublating the superimposition of human shortcomings and attributes on the Atman, the pure Atman, the substratum, shines forth as brahman Itself. The mani-fold universe and the individual self, which considers itself bound, are both superimposed upon that Transcendental Reality which is brahman. Once the superimposition is understood for what it is, the individual is no more an individual, the universe is no more the universe - all is brahman.

This doctrine of advaita should not be misinterpreted to mean that the human self is in and of itself God, without any qualification whatsoever. SankarAcArya most emphatically asserts that such is not his intention. On the other hand, he is at great pains to point out that one who is desirous of moksha needs to overcome his human shortcomings in order to achieve full liberation. Sankara prescribes rigorous prerequisite qualities for the person who is to study vedAnta. These form the practical aspect of the effort to rise above and sublate the characteristics of the human jIva, in order to understand the Atman/brahman. The non-dual reality of the Atman is revealed to the intense seeker, as an experience that defies words. One might call it a mystic experience of brahman, in which to know brahman is to be brahman. Thus, rather than being atheistic or non- theistic, advaita vedAnta is meta-theistic: it points to the basic underlying Reality of all, including what humans call God, what humans call the universe, and what humans call human. This Reality is the unchangeable brahman.

Source https://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/ad-phil.html
If you are seeking true Reality, since Reality is All, it must be here, now.
If you are seeking your true Self, since you are here, your Self too must be here, now.
Whatever word you are using for ‘That’, you may not see It, you may not know what It is, but for sure It must be here, now.
No need to reach It by any progressive practice.
And what is here, now? An amazing amount of manifold perceptions that appear and disappear in the boundless sentient space that you are.
__________________
I do not negate the world.
I see it as appearing in consciousness,
which is the totality of the known
in the immensity of the Unknown.

Read my post: Align yourself with the oneness of God/nature, align yourself with infinite abundance:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=133714

Also read my post:
The Quantum Physics of "God": A Self-Creating Universe or singularity:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...d.php?t=133802
Reply With Quote
  #327  
Old 17-02-2020, 07:20 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
Awareness is unchanging, at least to the extent I can determine. That's from 4 months to 61 years old. It's the exact same, unchanging.

Body has changed. Knowledge has changed. Emotions have changed. Memory has changed. Beliefs have changed. Pure non-dual awareness or consciousness is always the same. It just is. That's what is and only is. Nothing more, nothing less. It experiences without knowing, thinking, memory, belief. Thou art That.

By the way, that's one of the classic Vedantic proofs: The Five Sheaths.

https://youtu.be/rPtHCCT1SZM



But what is awareness by itself that is unchanging ..

Some masters speak of awareness becoming consciousness in the presence of an object and awareness by itself doesn't relate to anything per se .

Some speak about pure awareness is what you are but without self awareness one would not be able to come to that conclusion .

So we have the unchanging awareness by itself that doesn't know of itself until there is a self to know .

The unchanging aspect is a concept made up in mind and is used as a some kinda truth ..

Some teachers say that beyond mind is beyond consciousness and I say the same and I would say beyond mind is beyond awareness too .

Awareness is of the mind and it relates to I AM Aware . Take I AM out of the equation and there is no awareness present but what you are is .

What you are is all there is and in a way what you are changes like the weather doesn't it because what you are is also the weather .

In a forever changing universe if there is only what you are then what you are changes forevermore .

You see to have only what you are or God there cannot be something that which changes and something that doesn't .

Of the mind-body experience, you can't separate the appearances from what you are . That is why there is God as an elephant and God as a tree .

That is what Oneness means isn't it . One God . One Self but this mindful world allows Oneness to experience an infinite amount of diversity as individuals .

This is where what you are infinitely changes while consistently remaining what you are .


x daz x
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  #328  
Old 17-02-2020, 07:31 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS80
The present moment, the right here and now

But that is an ego self related construct that is conceptualised in mind isn't it .

You are pointing to a truer vantage point from an ego vantage point .

The 'now' is a mindful measure of being self aware .

It's a conceptualised construct isn't it and you are giving it way to much credit . You are using this as a plateau for the truth .

It's a mind trap when we speak about the falsities of conceptual relations and then use them to our advantage


x daz x
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  #329  
Old 17-02-2020, 07:42 AM
JustASimpleGuy JustASimpleGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS80
I found some great information on ADVAITA VEDANTA:

brahman = Atman -
What then of the human self, the jIva? It is here that advaita comes up with the most radical answer, one that is unacceptable to all other schools of vedAnta. According to advaita, what is called the universe is in reality not other than brahman. Similarly, what is called the jIva is in reality, the Atman, which is also nothing other than brahman Itself. The real jIva is the Atman, which is unchanging, ever free, and identical with brahman. This is said on the basis of upanishadic passages where the Atman is explicitly equated with brahman. This equation of Atman with brahman is also explained by means of adhyAropa-apavAda. By sublating the superimposition of human shortcomings and attributes on the Atman, the pure Atman, the substratum, shines forth as brahman Itself. The mani-fold universe and the individual self, which considers itself bound, are both superimposed upon that Transcendental Reality which is brahman. Once the superimposition is understood for what it is, the individual is no more an individual, the universe is no more the universe - all is brahman.

This doctrine of advaita should not be misinterpreted to mean that the human self is in and of itself God, without any qualification whatsoever. SankarAcArya most emphatically asserts that such is not his intention. On the other hand, he is at great pains to point out that one who is desirous of moksha needs to overcome his human shortcomings in order to achieve full liberation. Sankara prescribes rigorous prerequisite qualities for the person who is to study vedAnta. These form the practical aspect of the effort to rise above and sublate the characteristics of the human jIva, in order to understand the Atman/brahman. The non-dual reality of the Atman is revealed to the intense seeker, as an experience that defies words. One might call it a mystic experience of brahman, in which to know brahman is to be brahman. Thus, rather than being atheistic or non- theistic, advaita vedAnta is meta-theistic: it points to the basic underlying Reality of all, including what humans call God, what humans call the universe, and what humans call human. This Reality is the unchangeable brahman.

Source https://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/ad-phil.html


That page does not contradict anything I've posted. Research jivanmukta, moksha, paramatman and the metaphorical story of two birds and perhaps you'll begin to understand.

Regarding that page...

"Introduction -
The advaita philosophy is not easy to explain briefly, and it is not my intention to repeat in a www home page what takes whole volumes for accomplished experts. I will content myself with providing a brief synopsis of the various aspects of advaita vedAnta."


Yes, it's an amazingly deep and complex philosophy and that's why I've suggested, and will do so again, you need to take a few months and devote some intense study to the topic. It really is the authority on spiritual non-dualism.

I'm not sure what you're trying to emphasize with your cut & paste. Is it "It is here that advaita comes up with the most radical answer, one that is unacceptable to all other schools of vedAnta."? If so that's because "advaita" means non-dual and the other schools of Vedanta are dual in nature. Are you saying you dismiss what I've posted because of that criticism? If so then what I've been saying all along is accurate - what you are propounding and supporting is in fact dualism and not non-dualism.

Is it "This doctrine of advaita should not be misinterpreted to mean that the human self is in and of itself God, without any qualification whatsoever."? If so you are also mistaken because in the context of that passage it's the jiva-atman and not the paramatman, which is the pure atman as in Atman is Brahman.

There's also "The mani-fold universe and the individual self, which considers itself bound, are both superimposed upon that Transcendental Reality which is brahman. Once the superimposition is understood for what it is, the individual is no more an individual, the universe is no more the universe - all is brahman."

This is what I've been trying to explain to you - Self realization. The jiva-atman realizing it's the paramatman. Removal of ignorance or the power of maya to veil however that does not negate the power of maya to project.

My posts are also reinforced by "On the other hand, he is at great pains to point out that one who is desirous of moksha needs to overcome his human shortcomings in order to achieve full liberation.". That is, one needs to put aside things such as LoA and avoid unethical, illegal and immoral behavior. It's simply not an option to act in such a manner if you want to travel the non-dualist path and achieve liberation.


So in short you simply have more studying to do. A lot more studying and also emptying your cup. A while back I told you your cup runneth over, and this is probably why what's in this article flies right over your head. There is no room for new ideas or information to enter and settle in.
__________________
"Research your own experience; absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own." ~ Bruce Lee

"Of a certainty the man who can see all creatures in himself, himself in all creatures, knows no sorrow." ~ Upanishads

https://tinyurl.com/y2mxr4s2 My YouTube Channel

JASG
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  #330  
Old 17-02-2020, 07:52 AM
JustASimpleGuy JustASimpleGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Like
But what is awareness by itself that is unchanging ..

Some masters speak of awareness becoming consciousness in the presence of an object and awareness by itself doesn't relate to anything per se .

Some speak about pure awareness is what you are but without self awareness one would not be able to come to that conclusion .

So we have the unchanging awareness by itself that doesn't know of itself until there is a self to know .

The unchanging aspect is a concept made up in mind and is used as a some kinda truth ..

Some teachers say that beyond mind is beyond consciousness and I say the same and I would say beyond mind is beyond awareness too .

Awareness is of the mind and it relates to I AM Aware . Take I AM out of the equation and there is no awareness present but what you are is .

What you are is all there is and in a way what you are changes like the weather doesn't it because what you are is also the weather .

In a forever changing universe if there is only what you are then what you are changes forevermore .

You see to have only what you are or God there cannot be something that which changes and something that doesn't .

Of the mind-body experience, you can't separate the appearances from what you are . That is why there is God as an elephant and God as a tree .

That is what Oneness means isn't it . One God . One Self but this mindful world allows Oneness to experience an infinite amount of diversity as individuals .

This is where what you are infinitely changes while consistently remaining what you are .


x daz x

The article Mike linked explains at a high level the paradox of unchanging and changing. Absolute and maya. Honestly I don't even pretend to understand at any level of detail or "mechanics". How can one while still within maya? To put it in Advaitin terms one can pierce the power of maya to veil (removal of ignorance, realization, liberation) but not the power of maya to project. The latter will have to wait for a liberated one to escape the cycle and leave the jiva behind.

But still, and I'm speaking from my personal experience, awareness is unchanging. This is visceral to me. There's a clear and present distinction and separation between mind and awareness, just as much as between pinky and thumb.
__________________
"Research your own experience; absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is essentially your own." ~ Bruce Lee

"Of a certainty the man who can see all creatures in himself, himself in all creatures, knows no sorrow." ~ Upanishads

https://tinyurl.com/y2mxr4s2 My YouTube Channel

JASG
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