Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Science & Spirituality

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-01-2020, 11:05 PM
guthrio guthrio is offline
Master
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,393
  guthrio's Avatar
Any Science or Religion without Truth is both lame AND blind.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind"

But any Science or Religion without Truth is both lame AND blind.

Primarily the difference between religion and science is the method of inquiry for the Truth...such as to this question which encapsulates both: "Where does Creation end and You begin?" Asking such a question deeply as a scientist asks, and being unafraid to continue exploring the answers has nothing to do with either science or religion, and everything to do with the quality of the inquiry.

If by 'science', you mean the current paradigm within which scientific discovery is conducted by continually seeking answers to questions based on evidence that many of its practitioners (i.e. scientists) have validated, quantified, and repeated, then the answer to your question depends on what such "science" excludes from inquiry. Why? Because the practitioners of such 'science' do not recognize or understand the basis for 'evidence' that is outside their established paradigm. So they collectively (and reflexively) declare, "That event or phenomenon or concept (you fill in the blank) is not possible." Obviously such as stance is ripe for refutation by verifiable, repeatable, quantifiable evidence, even by rigorous adherence to the tenants of their OWN paradigm.

If by 'religion', you mean mean restoring, or “binding back” man’s apparent separation from his Creator, this, too, is most unhelpful in its current uses. Over the centuries, accomplishing this task has devolved into continuing attempts by misguided, self-made organizations wrestling (or paradoxically, even warring) with one another to control any ideas concerning the status of mankind and our relationship with our Creator, as vested in one form or another, to a privileged few. This mindset occurs, unfortunately, within all such groups who are primarily interested in maintaining their set of ideas as the ONLY way human beings are supposed to think, act, and live. I’ve come to understand that the basic premise of religion to “bind back” man’s relationship with our Creator, as practiced in the kinds of organizations I’ve described, is profoundly deficient. Why? Because mankind, created as the Spirit and Image of God, could never be, nor has ever been, separated from our Creator.

The history of mankind’s exploration and discovery of both scientific and religiousTruth is replete with examples of this or that scientist or religious prelate pontificating that this or that phenomena is impossible.

…..Only to be subsequently refuted by quantifiable, repeatable, verifiable evidence found by others with a set of different ideas that turned the paradigm of established scientific or religious consensus on its head.

Do the Heavens still rotate around the Earth? Not after Galileo. Are time and space separate from one another? Not after Einstein. Did you get your vaccines this year? Thanks to Pasteur you did. Is the Earth still flat? Ask Erikson, Columbus or Magellan for the answer. Do you have to read this answer in the dark? Not after a little help from one of Edison’s great ideas.

The Principles of Life uncovered by scientists that govern the relationship between mass, gravity, time, and the curvature of space to produce black holes have been in perfect operation just as eternally before their discovery of those principles as is the frequency upon which you enjoy listening to your favorite music; indeed, existent ever since the Universe cooled it into resonance along with the infinite gradations of frequency radiating beside it. These principles HAD to have been in operation just as perfectly BEFORE we discovered how to harness them into technology as they presently operate now. Or we would not be able to continue to utilize them for our technology today, much less build them into technological improvements tomorrow!

This has to include spiritual principles. (And they operate perfectly whether or not you doubt or have faith in the Universe’s operation) From the standpoint of principle, then, understand that spiritual knowledge HAS ALSO been in perfect operation just as eternally BEFORE as AFTER our discovery and application.

What we call miracles is NOT contravention of science. The accomplishment of miracles comes from a knowledge base that science has not yet incorporated into its paradigm of "what is possible". Such as stance is ripe for refutation by verifiable, repeatable, quantifiable evidence, as I mentioned before. The accomplishment of miracles is based on principles, too. And once you discover them in yourself (and they ARE waiting for you to do so) just as scientists have been "discovering" new ways of looking at the Universe, you, too will be able to utilize these principles to accomplish the very same things.

Whether scientists, theologians, philosophers, or laypersons, we “see” through our ideas. We ALL are free to choose to believe that 2+2=5 for ETERNITY until we have acquired FOR OURSELVES the necessary knowledge of the immutable principle that correctly sums the answer.

Don't believe me? Try MAKING 2+2=5. Doesn't work, does it? We can ONLY accept its perfect operation, because we CANNOT change Truth.

In this manner, even a skeptical, hard-nosed, evidence-propounding scientist of the current paradigm of scientific discovery can learn to understand that the same Source Who created perfect principles of mathematics which operate undeviatingly to create ONLY 4 as the answer to 2+2, ALSO CREATED US out of perfect principles. Furthermore, he or she can validate that the correct application of such principles enables them to accomplish anything consistent with those principles.

You don’t need faith to do this.

You don’t need beliefs to do this.

You only need Truth to do this.

So where do you search for an answer?

As to scientific treatises and text books, we already know that ongoing discovery of ever-new data proceeds at such a pace that they are virtually obsolete shortly after they are published. How reliable is that?

As for religion and the books many faiths utilize to codify the tenants of their faith, consider that whether called the Qur'an, or the Torah, or the Bible, or the Upanishads, or the Dead Sea Scrolls, or the spoken traditions, Mother Nature, or what have you, these books are only tools, PREPARATORY INSTRUCTIONS for the real lessons. Though not the sacred "territory" they describe, such books can help point back to THAT inside of us from which the real inspiration, and direction comes. Their sole purpose is only to reflect the Divinity of the I AM within OURSELVES. A teacher or a book may tell you or show you what to do with them, but we don't really have to go anywhere for the answers we need. The "manual" is written (not "in"), but AS our very being. Our own being is the "book" to learn from.

As there is really no such place where "you" begin and where Creation ends; similarly, there is no dividing line between a "universal self” and an "individual self".

The 'individual' self and the 'universal' Self are One and the Same. "Individual" really means; cannot be divided from, or separated from, the One Whole I AM into parts.

"I, the individual self" is really the Whole expressing Itself as "a part of the Whole"....you.

God is the I AM of all. And beside Him there is no other.

I AM THAT I AM AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO OTHER.

He is Who we are! It is in Him and through Him that we have our Being.

Therefore, you can ask the Creator of Creation for the answer to ANY question. He is ever-present WITHIN you and will ALWAYS answer true. He IS Truth.

What if you DON’T BELIEVE OR ACCEPT THIS PERFECTION if you are a scientist and / or a religious person?

Neither our belief nor disbelief affects THE FACT that the ONLY way you can know this for yourself is to see the perfect principle in operation IN yourself. Understand, though, that you must scientifically uncover, know, operate, and practice the correct principles within the "laboratory" of YOURSELF! Exactly as any scientist learns to apply the principles of mathematics or any other scientific discipline. We can DO NO MORE than work WITH this infinite system of which we, ourselves, are an inseparable part. No attempt on our part to ignore, change, disbelieve, or rationalize affects its perfection in ANY way whatsoever !! 2+2 is ALWAYS 4.....perfectly.

If the accomplishment of miracles was NOT based on unchangeable principles, Jesus would not have been able to truthfully say "Greater things than these shall you also do." Not so just one person can do it, but so that anybody could do it, following relevant principles. And once you discover them in yourself (and they ARE waiting for you to do so) you, too, will be able to utilize these principles to accomplish the very same things. Exactly as scientists apply knowledge gleaned from ‘previously undiscovered’ ways of looking at the Universe.

THAT is the part you won't hear from those who've sought to keep access to the Truth about ourselves limited to ONLY a self-approved “credo” of beliefs espoused in some religion's scripture, filled with sanctioned interpretations about it.

The true purpose of religion or science is not to bind us to "its" teachings or to "its" traditions,

.....but to lift us to go beyond them so that we can know and learn from the Real Teacher inside us all...

Again, when the quality of the inquiry is based on quantifying, repeating, and validating TRUE PRINCIPLES then the answers to our questions can EASILY be understood by theologians, scientists, historians, philosophers, and logicians, and laypersons alike. If we are REALLY serious about knowing, not just believing, the Truth of ourselves, we would gain the KNOW-ledge for OURSELVES, so that the scientific or spiritual Truth we seek proves or disproves Itself irrefutably within OUR OWN EXPERIENCE.

THAT'S what true science or religion is....
__________________
“Why, that’s true! I am a perfect, unlimited gull!” Jonathan opened his eyes asking, "Where are we?” The Elder Chiang said, “We’re on some planet with a green sky and a double star for a sun.” Jonathan made a scree of delight. “IT WORKS!" “Well, of course it works, Jon,” said Chiang. “It always works, when you know what you’re doing." (and even when you don't)
http://csermelyblog.tehetsegpont.hu/...ir%C3%A1ly.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COt1n3jDqA&t=19s
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-01-2020, 11:27 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,299
 
Do you have an executive summary or a TLDR?

Anyway ... You seem to use quite liberally "true", "truth", which make me incredulous of your argument here. Nobody should-be / can-be sure they know the truth, even if they knew it.
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 13-01-2020, 08:50 AM
guthrio guthrio is offline
Master
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,393
  guthrio's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
Do you have an executive summary or a TLDR?

Anyway ... You seem to use quite liberally "true", "truth", which make me incredulous of your argument here. Nobody should-be / can-be sure they know the truth, even if they knew it.

Hi Inavalan,

Perhaps you would find it ironic that your last sentence seems to espouse your truth without incredulity, or an executive summary, or even a TLDR!

Should I wait until you have provided these to then judge the worthiness of your statement?

......well?
__________________
“Why, that’s true! I am a perfect, unlimited gull!” Jonathan opened his eyes asking, "Where are we?” The Elder Chiang said, “We’re on some planet with a green sky and a double star for a sun.” Jonathan made a scree of delight. “IT WORKS!" “Well, of course it works, Jon,” said Chiang. “It always works, when you know what you’re doing." (and even when you don't)
http://csermelyblog.tehetsegpont.hu/...ir%C3%A1ly.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COt1n3jDqA&t=19s

Last edited by guthrio : 13-01-2020 at 08:51 AM. Reason: clarify input
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 13-01-2020, 05:12 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 2,299
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by guthrio
Hi Inavalan,

Perhaps you would find it ironic that your last sentence seems to espouse your truth without incredulity, or an executive summary, or even a TLDR!

Should I wait until you have provided these to then judge the worthiness of your statement?

......well?

I believe you missed my point, but it's okay.
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 13-01-2020, 08:38 AM
Busby Busby is offline
Master
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,145
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by guthrio
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind"


What we call miracles is NOT contravention of science. The accomplishment of miracles comes from a knowledge base that science has not yet incorporated into its paradigm of "what is possible". Such as stance is ripe for refutation by verifiable, repeatable, quantifiable evidence, as I mentioned before. The accomplishment of miracles is based on principles, too. And once you discover them in yourself (and they ARE waiting for you to do so) just as scientists have been "discovering" new ways of looking at the Universe, you, too will be able to utilize these principles to accomplish the very same things.




If the accomplishment of miracles was NOT based on unchangeable principles, Jesus would not have been able to truthfully say "Greater things than these shall you also do." Not so just one person can do it, but so that anybody could do it, following relevant principles. And once you discover them in yourself (and they ARE waiting for you to do so) you, too, will be able to utilize these principles to accomplish the very same things. Exactly as scientists apply knowledge gleaned from ‘previously undiscovered’ ways of looking at the Universe.


THAT'S what true science or religion is....

A very fine collection of all those 'things' we need to convince ourselves - but only if we are willing to be convinced.

I'd like to take this opportunity again (I've posed the same question many times) to know what miracles are. I've never seen one, nor can I in my long life recall ever having seen one reported or filmed or commentated.
Obviously the thing about walking on water and so on was a long time ago and really can't count in view of all those 'old wives' tales' kicking around all over the place.

But guide me to one miracle please, just one.
__________________


What dreams may come when we have shuffled off this mortal coil.
Hamlet



What does a frog in a pond know of the world's oceans??
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 13-01-2020, 08:57 AM
JosephineBloggs JosephineBloggs is offline
Master
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: The green & pleasant land
Posts: 2,620
  JosephineBloggs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
A very fine collection of all those 'things' we need to convince ourselves - but only if we are willing to be convinced.

I'd like to take this opportunity again (I've posed the same question many times) to know what miracles are. I've never seen one, nor can I in my long life recall ever having seen one reported or filmed or commentated.
Obviously the thing about walking on water and so on was a long time ago and really can't count in view of all those 'old wives' tales' kicking around all over the place.

But guide me to one miracle please, just one.

Sometimes we just don't notice the miracles all around us.

I know you've written about synchronicities before, and what you class them to be. Myself and a friend had one involving a hummingbird. They were having none of it though. I said "What do you expect! A six foot hummingbird standing next to you giving you instructions"
__________________
I salute the Divinity in you.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 13-01-2020, 09:21 AM
Busby Busby is offline
Master
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,145
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs
Sometimes we just don't notice the miracles all around us.

I know you've written about synchronicities before, and what you class them to be. Myself and a friend had one involving a hummingbird. They were having none of it though. I said "What do you expect! A six foot hummingbird standing next to you giving you instructions"


There is probably no one who appreciates the wonder of life more than I do.

But those miracles I'm interested in are the ones where the laws of what we call nature are apparently ignored.
__________________


What dreams may come when we have shuffled off this mortal coil.
Hamlet



What does a frog in a pond know of the world's oceans??
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 13-01-2020, 09:43 AM
JosephineBloggs JosephineBloggs is offline
Master
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: The green & pleasant land
Posts: 2,620
  JosephineBloggs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
There is probably no one who appreciates the wonder of life more than I do.

But those miracles I'm interested in are the ones where the laws of what we call nature are apparently ignored.

Unfortunately/fortunately It won't show Itself like that. The game would be up then. Have you ever thought about what you'd do if you were shown the evidence you are looking for?
__________________
I salute the Divinity in you.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 13-01-2020, 10:11 AM
Busby Busby is offline
Master
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,145
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs
Unfortunately/fortunately It won't show Itself like that. The game would be up then. Have you ever thought about what you'd do if you were shown the evidence you are looking for?


You see, the question is always evaded.

If I could see a miracle - I mean a real one - I'd have to change my point of view about a lot of things.

Anyway - I'm relying on Guthrie to give me a pointer.
__________________


What dreams may come when we have shuffled off this mortal coil.
Hamlet



What does a frog in a pond know of the world's oceans??
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 14-01-2020, 09:59 AM
Busby Busby is offline
Master
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,145
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
A very fine collection of all those 'things' we need to convince ourselves - but only if we are willing to be convinced.

I'd like to take this opportunity again (I've posed the same question many times) to know what miracles are. I've never seen one, nor can I in my long life recall ever having seen one reported or filmed or commentated.
Obviously the thing about walking on water and so on was a long time ago and really can't count in view of all those 'old wives' tales' kicking around all over the place.

But guide me to one miracle please, just one.

Again: Just one please Guthrio - just one
__________________


What dreams may come when we have shuffled off this mortal coil.
Hamlet



What does a frog in a pond know of the world's oceans??
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums