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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > General Religion

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  #11  
Old 12-01-2006, 10:43 PM
Poppies
Posts: n/a
 
[quote=Space_Man]I wanted to quickly toss this into the mix, as well. This was apparently written by the recently-deceased Pope John Paul the 2nd. Although it still does little to address the nature of hell, it offers some startling information about who ends up going there and why:

[quote]It is not a punishment imposed [lit. inflitto dall'esterno
  #12  
Old 13-01-2006, 01:12 AM
Elen0Sila
Posts: n/a
 
[quote=Space_Man]I wanted to quickly toss this into the mix, as well. This was apparently written by the recently-deceased Pope John Paul the 2nd. Although it still does little to address the nature of hell, it offers some startling information about who ends up going there and why:

[quote]It is not a punishment imposed [lit. inflitto dall'esterno
  #13  
Old 13-01-2006, 09:41 AM
Poppies
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elen0Sila
Quote:
"Eternal damnation", therefore, is not attributed to God's initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. So eternal damnation is not God's work but is actually our own doing.
This is actually what I believe. People who choose to live their lives "in the presence of God" (i.e. live lives of goodness, justice, love, mercy, etc., everything that is identified with God) will spend eternity "in the presence of God" (again, with all of those precious things). People who lives their lives without bringing the presence of God into the world will spend eternity -- not in a firey place of punishment -- but as they spent their lives: in the absence of God.

I don't know if I was just in 'thick'-mode but I was finding the meaning of that quote hard to 'get' - your 'summary' of it is much clearer!!!!

BUT... it's the eternal damnation thing again... I kind of go with 'hell' being completely devoid of God/a god/spiritual input in this life.... but eternal damnation?

It comes back to the title of this thread...

Okay... a little scenario here...
About a year ago, we had a major 'row' with our older daughter about her not taking any sort of responsibility for the upkeep (and legal status) of her car... despite several reminders from her father, she had allowed her MOT to lapse (safety certificate)... she'd become angry with her father every time he'd reminded her... but when it lapsed she wanted everyone to rush around and put the situation right for her. Her father put his foot down... I backed him up... she was shocked to say the least... and she didn't speak to us for several days...........

I am not saying that we are perfect... but it's an example that comes to mind. We were not in the wrong... and she 'separated' herself from us......

Whilst we were, in effect, in the 'right' in this situation, we didn't want the consequent 'atmosphere' to carry on doing any damage. We all needed time to cool down... but after a couple of days we sought to make peace with her. We did not 'back down'.... we did not 'take the blame'... we made it clear that we loved her... that we wanted to 'restore' our
  #14  
Old 13-01-2006, 11:58 PM
Elen0Sila
Posts: n/a
 
You make a very good point, Poppies. :!: What I always come back to is the Jewish teaching that no one really knows what kind of afterlife there is, or if there is a "real" afterlife at all (do we just live on in memory?). So anything is possible, and the idea that God would still be accesible throughout eternity to those who come late to wanting to connect with Him makes sense. :)
  #15  
Old 17-01-2006, 06:09 PM
Space_Man
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elen0Sila
...the idea that God would still be accesible throughout eternity to those who come late to wanting to connect with Him makes sense.
But, the crucial point being: is it only within this life that we can still have
  #16  
Old 26-01-2006, 02:00 PM
Poppies
Posts: n/a
 
[quote=Space_Man]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elen0Sila
...the idea that God would still be accesible throughout eternity to those who come late to wanting to connect with Him makes sense.
But, the crucial point being: is it only within this life that we can still have
  #17  
Old 26-01-2006, 03:25 PM
DASA
Posts: n/a
 
Eternal Option

Poppies:"This is something I always struggled with in my 'good-little-Christian' days.... I simply could not, and can not accept that we only have 'access' to God pre-death!"

I totally agree, I'm not sure where this idea originated, as I don't remember Jesus ever saying it? Maybe Spaceman know a quote?

Certainly it would make more sense that an All-Loving God would always keep the option open for us?

Gouranga :-)
  #18  
Old 26-01-2006, 04:12 PM
Poppies
Posts: n/a
 
Re: Eternal Option

Quote:
Originally Posted by DASA
Poppies:"This is something I always struggled with in my 'good-little-Christian' days.... I simply could not, and can not accept that we only have 'access' to God pre-death!"

I totally agree, I'm not sure where this idea originated, as I don't remember Jesus ever saying it? Maybe Spaceman know a quote?

Certainly it would make more sense that an All-Loving God would always keep the option open for us?

Gouranga :-)

This is actually something that angers me about Christianity DASA, there is no verse in the bible that actually says "you have to be a Christian before you die or you go to hell" - yet this is preached in the churches and by many Christians. There are verses that are open to interpretation - for example:
Quote:
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
This is the main verse that is quoted to 'prove' the fact that you have to be a Christian before you die to go to heaven.

In my mind it doesn't say that anyway... It's saying that he is the way - it is his choice - it is not for us to say......

In addition, the more I read about the origins of the early Christian religion, and the fact that the bible was written some years after Jesus death - the more I doubt the accuracy of words that were 'put into Jesus' mouth' by his followers..... whilst I don't have a particular problem with his teachings in general, I admit to having serious doubts about so-called verbatim sayings that were attributed to him...........
:?
  #19  
Old 27-01-2006, 09:49 AM
DASA
Posts: n/a
 
Re: Eternal Option

Poppies:
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I've had that one thrown at me a few times aswell. ;-) Another translation I've heard (apparently a more correct one) is 'No-one comes to the Father, except through the son'. Now I can live with that one because I don't believe Jesus was God's only son. It just means that 'to successfully approach God you have to take help from someone who is already in touch with Him.'

Also I don't personally believe that all of Jesus' teachings can be taken as Universal instructions, applicable to all people, at all times and in all circumstances. Just like when you go to a doctor he doesn't give everyone the same medicine, it depends on the type of sickness and person etc... He might say to one person 'other people will come, but I will be your only chance to know God' which could be true for that one person he was speaking to, in that particular lifetime. But not for all mankind for the rest of time.

"In addition, the more I read about the origins of the early Christian religion, and the fact that the bible was written some years after Jesus death - the more I doubt the accuracy of words that were 'put into Jesus' mouth' by his followers..... whilst I don't have a particular problem with his teachings in general, I admit to having serious doubts about so-called verbatim sayings that were attributed to him..........."

Sadly I think this has put a lot of people off, largely because the more you look into it there does actually seem to be some truth in it. The essence is more important than the details, but it's still helpful if you know the details are correct aswell.

Gouranga :-)
Das
  #20  
Old 27-01-2006, 02:26 PM
Poppies
Posts: n/a
 
Re: Eternal Option

Quote:
Originally Posted by DASA
Poppies:
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I've had that one thrown at me a few times aswell. ;-) Another translation I've heard (apparently a more correct one) is 'No-one comes to the Father, except through the son'. Now I can live with that one because I don't believe Jesus was God's only son. It just means that 'to successfully approach God you have to take help from someone who is already in touch with Him.'
That's one way of looking at it...

Looking at those words as if they were the words actually spoken by Jesus....

A signpost shows the way to go..... if someone is lost, they ask the way... a road travelled is the way to get to a destination...

I like the idea that Jesus is showing us the 'road' to travel.... he is showing us the 'way' to go...

What if he is saying that "the way to come to the Father is by travelling the way (the road) that I am showing you" - that's completely different to "you have to be a Christian before you die or you go to hell"!!

Although our interpretations are different, and I'm only 'offering' mine up for consideration anyway....I know that to an extent we're on the same wavelength - in that we don't agree with the "Christian interpretation" of that quote....

I don't want to sound flippant here, but another way to look at that quote is to imagine Jesus as a sort of 'bouncer' (like at a nightclub).... If a bouncer says "no-one is coming into this nightclub except through me" he is not saying "you must become a bouncer or you can't come in".... what he is actually saying is "It's up to me who comes in and who doesn't - it's my choice".........
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