How to practically force your ego to die?

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Now that's an interesting question!

I've already posted in two other threads about Witness consciousness and I'm wondering how it would apply here?

That is say one ego state has mastered resting in awareness where on the deepest level one can witness said ego state, however in another ego state that's probably not the case. I'm just guessing but that would be my assumption. Of course if both ego states had similar spiritual paths and both mastered the meditative technique to attain that state of consciousness then both would, but I wouldn't think that likely.

The biggest stumbling block by far to understanding this is the attitude some Spiritual people have to science and - certainly in this subject - psychology. Spirituality is not set apart from psychology and that's where the misunderstanding happens, when people think that their Spirituality exists in splendid isolation. That's a mental health issue if ever I saw one.

What's also ignored is that in ancient times there was no division between religion and mental health because they were one and the same. When I was ploughing through material about Ahamkara - which Jung based his model of the ego on - the more it became apparent that although they were using Sanskrit words the more they were talking about psychology. Talking of which - https://www.ananda.org/yogapedia/chitta/
That's very much like cognitive behaviour, something that's came through psychology in the last 30 years or so.

So, trying to find some common ground between Spirituality and religion......

From my own experiences, I don't know if a dissociative/ego state is considered as an ego in its own right. My own is more of a compartmentalised 'emotional snapshot' as much as anything else. What can happen with the brain/mind is that it can detach/compartmentalise from reality in situations where it perceives enough of a threat. It's a survival mechanism and can account for some - not necessarily all - NDEs. It's not another ego state but a 'branch' or compartmentalisation of a specific 'snapshot' of the ego. Mine is a 'snapshot' of the mental state of the child that was abused that night and - compartmentalised - everything is experienced from that perspective. As the child comes through I experience from the perspective of that child. In my own case my ego (sense of I am) is aware of the 'compartments' and they are aware that they are 'parts'.

Interestingly enough, that seems to give me Witness consciousness because, as I found out from my cognitive behaviour therapy, my anger comes from my own emotional response to what 'that child' went through for example. I used to be almost consumed by anger, now it feels more like a river of energy that flows through me that I am 'above' or witnessing.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The biggest stumbling block by far to understanding this is the attitude some Spiritual people have to science and - certainly in this subject - psychology. Spirituality is not set apart from psychology and that's where the misunderstanding happens, when people think that their Spirituality exists in splendid isolation. That's a mental health issue if ever I saw one.

What's also ignored is that in ancient times there was no division between religion and mental health because they were one and the same. When I was ploughing through material about Ahamkara - which Jung based his model of the ego on - the more it became apparent that although they were using Sanskrit words the more they were talking about psychology. Talking of which - https://www.ananda.org/yogapedia/chitta/
That's very much like cognitive behaviour, something that's came through psychology in the last 30 years or so.

So, trying to find some common ground between Spirituality and religion......

From my own experiences, I don't know if a dissociative/ego state is considered as an ego in its own right. My own is more of a compartmentalised 'emotional snapshot' as much as anything else. What can happen with the brain/mind is that it can detach/compartmentalise from reality in situations where it perceives enough of a threat. It's a survival mechanism and can account for some - not necessarily all - NDEs. It's not another ego state but a 'branch' or compartmentalisation of a specific 'snapshot' of the ego. Mine is a 'snapshot' of the mental state of the child that was abused that night and - compartmentalised - everything is experienced from that perspective. As the child comes through I experience from the perspective of that child. In my own case my ego (sense of I am) is aware of the 'compartments' and they are aware that they are 'parts'.

Interestingly enough, that seems to give me Witness consciousness because, as I found out from my cognitive behaviour therapy, my anger comes from my own emotional response to what 'that child' went through for example. I used to be almost consumed by anger, now it feels more like a river of energy that flows through me that I am 'above' or witnessing.

No doubt about it they were talking about psychology. It was an inner exploration of experience. What I find amazing is how far down into its depths they plumbed. I would say they even succeeded in going beyond mind.

I have a memory of an experience from four or five months old, and when I related it to mom in my early 20s she was stunned, saying I couldn't possible remember it as I was an infant, but verified it in all its detail. It's as strong a memory today as when it occurred.

It was also an OBE and from the Witness perspective. It was above and behind mom and undisturbed by the goings on, of the infant me wailing up a storm, mom cradling me in her arms and trying to sooth me and dad sitting on the other side of the kitchen table softly chuckling.

It wasn't until after lots of meditation practice, and specifically resting in awareness (choiceless awareness/do-nothing meditation) that I attained that state of awareness. Where I could witness me (and all stimuli) from a perspective that wasn't me.

How does an infant do that?


Since I'm firmly in the non-dualism camp I don't subscribe to the supernatural. There's only the natural however it's so astoundingly deep it's my opinion we'll never succeed in objectively exploring it all the way to its bottom. That's the territory of the Innernaut.

[davidsun]

I subscribe to (Jane Roberts') Seth's idea that consciousness is fluidly mobile - he speaks of living-in-nature mothers being able to 'keep an eye' on the child they left under a tree while they went off food-gathering by mentally and emotionally 'i'dentifying with the tree and thereby 'seeing' from the tree's 'point of view', for example.

Speaking of multiple 'personalities', I theorize that every 'personality' is a function of a 'soul' (an 'atman-byte' ) mentality and emotionally adopting an 'i'dentity' - which is different from the 'i'dentities that it is not - and then seeing, experiencing and responding to whatever is going on from such a mental-and-emotional 'nexus'. Such 'i'dentifications may(?) be with their reincarnational 'selves' or other 'probable' selves (according to Seth, a soul may generate another 'probable self' to mentally and mentionally (i.e. experientially!) explore a different/alternate 'sets' of desires and goals when more than one 'set' (of desires and goals) become 'activated' - 'new' 'probable selves' may also be invented and deployed 'on the spot' if and when 'triggered' by strong circumatantial exigencies, I think. (See https://spiritualistsocietyofreno.org/probable-selves/ )

I think that the 'mobility of consciousness' theory reasonably explains phenomena such as 'remote viewing', NDEs, OOBEs, and all other kinds of 'dissociations' from one's personal-physical 'self' as well as 'transcendental' 'visions' such as those in which people see/experience the entirety of creation (that is what they regard as being 'the entirety of creation') as being 'within' 'themselves'.

My theory also is that all such 'views' of consciousness' are necessarily subjective - that is they are determined by the motives of the living atmic 'nodule' which deploys its consciousness for its 'own' uniquely-desired purposes. This includes those who who 'wish' to see and therefore 'imagine' that they see things as they really are - there is no such thing as 'pure' (or absolute) 'objectivity', IMO.

Some 'perceptions' and 'experiences' overlap/meld to a significant degree (such intersubjectivity 'creates' 'worlds' which may be thought of as being 'real' and conjointly navigated). Others are more or less solipsistic/idiosyncratic (and so may be categorized as being 'nutty' fantasies or 'weird' dreams).

Whatever the case, everything 'perceived' and 'experienced' reflects the mental-and-emotional 'character' of the 'perceiver and experiencer'. This may be relationally integral to/integrated with Life-at-Large or just partially so. In extreme cases, a soul may diverge (into what the rest creation regards a 'oblivion') altogether!!

Welcome to the a Magical Mystery Tour folks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8WMGBuNaus

How to practically force your ego to die?

In my opinion,(again,for what it's worth) ,souls do not have ego's.Ego's are formed throughout your life due to individual circumstances.The soul is pure.

[Crabby_zen]

Ego is like a country. The boundaries that define it are merely constructs, only real in the mind/ego, self perpetuating. In stillness where is it?

But to actually "see" this without the ego appropriating it as a structure that sustains the illusion is quite tricky as some have suggested. In other words you cannot think yourself out of this delusion.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Empirical research versus opinion? No contest really.

Another pattern I've noticed is that some people tend to think that debunking science makes their own pet opinions fact, as has been demonstrated a few times on threads about ego.

I studied psychology at university and even then I found it somewhat limited and disappointing.

One of the issues with current psychology is that it has no understanding of the bigger picture. For those of us who accept a more esoteric philosophy of human existence there are many factors relating to the mind, the personality and the brain which psychology does not begin to consider. It is not a case of debunking science, it is more about seeing the limitations of current scientific thinking.

Peace

Originally Posted by iamthat

I studied psychology at university and even then I found it somewhat limited and disappointing.

One of the issues with current psychology is that it has no understanding of the bigger picture. For those of us who accept a more esoteric philosophy of human existence there are many factors relating to the mind, the personality and the brain which psychology does not begin to consider. It is not a case of debunking science, it is more about seeing the limitations of current scientific thinking.

Peace

I worked in mental health and have seen first-hand what mental health issues can do to people. Including myself. One of the issues with esoteric philosophy is that it's very limited by the indset of those who extol its virtues, such as people who shun psychology yet write tracts of text on psychoanalysis. This is what has happened on pretty much every thread on the ego I've seen - including this one. Supposedly oh so Spiritual people can't see that they are the unwitting victims of their own definitions. The limitations are not confined to scientific thinking, and often science is debunked so that people can push their opinions as science facts. So many people are experts on the go, and how many have read anything but religious texts? All you have to do is look at this thread and see what's happening.

Spirituality certainly doesn't want to see the 'bigger picture' either, that's for sure. For the most part it only wants to see itself.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

No doubt about it they were talking about psychology. It was an inner exploration of experience. What I find amazing is how far down into its depths they plumbed. I would say they even succeeded in going beyond mind.

I have a memory of an experience from four or five months old, and when I related it to mom in my early 20s she was stunned, saying I couldn't possible remember it as I was an infant, but verified it in all its detail. It's as strong a memory today as when it occurred.

It was also an OBE and from the Witness perspective. It was above and behind mom and undisturbed by the goings on, of the infant me wailing up a storm, mom cradling me in her arms and trying to sooth me and dad sitting on the other side of the kitchen table softly chuckling.

It wasn't until after lots of meditation practice, and specifically resting in awareness (choiceless awareness/do-nothing meditation) that I attained that state of awareness. Where I could witness me (and all stimuli) from a perspective that wasn't me.

How does an infant do that?

Since I'm firmly in the non-dualism camp I don't subscribe to the supernatural. There's only the natural however it's so astoundingly deep it's my opinion we'll never succeed in objectively exploring it all the way to its bottom. That's the territory of the Innernaut.

For the most part people don't want to explore the mind, they seem happy enough with the surface layers of their beliefs and never even get their feet wet when it comes to exploring what's in their skulls. They fortify their beliefs but don't spend any time being the 'Innernaut', they don't look at the frameworks of their beliefs. Howe those guys learned so much considering the context is beyond belief.

That's actually quite common, people remembering experiences from a very early age. It's said that we remember everything that happens to us, the 'raw data' is stored away somewhere and once the brain/mind has finished filtering it we become conscious of it. According to science there is the unconscious mind, the pre-conscious and the conscious mind. Your memories were likely stored in the pre-conscious mind, that's where it's 'put to one side' for access later, like a phone number that's not in our immediate consciousness but we can still remember it. The stronger the memory the closer to your conscious, and the more important it is. Less important memories are buried deeper.

I've had a few experiences of that third-party perspective, some of them through trauma and some when I was going through a pretty crazy Spiritual stage. Not sure I could stay there but it's a cool experience anyway, and frankly I think it would unhinge me loner term.

In very simple terms, children don't have the same sense of "I am" as adults, and that sense of "I am" keeps our feet on the ground. It's all about understanding the ego and how it affects us. The child simply isn't affected by all the other stuff that adults have - they'll play in the puddles and not worry about getting their expensive trainers wet. They also don't give much of a hoot about Spirituality. This is where you shoot yourself in the foot, you spend time doing everything to do nothing, when you could be doing nothing by not thinking at all.

Dualism is binary thinking and it's the mind that comes up with the concept. The ancient pre-Taoist alchemists came up with Triplex Unity and that makes sense of everything. In dualism there is 'this' and there is 'that', while in Triplex Unity there is 'this', there is 'that' and there is 'both'. You can use the Vesica Pisces as a diagram for visualisation and it's the basis for understanding the Buddhist Egg and Flower of Life. There is the natural, there is the supernatural and there is a place where they 'overlap'. There is Spirituality and there is ego - since we're in an ego thread - and there is the place where those two 'meet'. So while you have astoundingly deep you also have astoundingly high, and ll of that - if you want it - within the sphere of your own consciousness. The Vesica Pisces is the 'model' for understanding 5D reality.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

For the most part people don't want to explore the mind, they seem happy enough with the surface layers of their beliefs and never even get their feet wet when it comes to exploring what's in their skulls. They fortify their beliefs but don't spend any time being the 'Innernaut', they don't look at the frameworks of their beliefs. Howe those guys learned so much considering the context is beyond belief.

That's actually quite common, people remembering experiences from a very early age. It's said that we remember everything that happens to us, the 'raw data' is stored away somewhere and once the brain/mind has finished filtering it we become conscious of it. According to science there is the unconscious mind, the pre-conscious and the conscious mind. Your memories were likely stored in the pre-conscious mind, that's where it's 'put to one side' for access later, like a phone number that's not in our immediate consciousness but we can still remember it. The stronger the memory the closer to your conscious, and the more important it is. Less important memories are buried deeper.

I've had a few experiences of that third-party perspective, some of them through trauma and some when I was going through a pretty crazy Spiritual stage. Not sure I could stay there but it's a cool experience anyway, and frankly I think it would unhinge me loner term.

In very simple terms, children don't have the same sense of "I am" as adults, and that sense of "I am" keeps our feet on the ground. It's all about understanding the ego and how it affects us. The child simply isn't affected by all the other stuff that adults have - they'll play in the puddles and not worry about getting their expensive trainers wet. They also don't give much of a hoot about Spirituality. This is where you shoot yourself in the foot, you spend time doing everything to do nothing, when you could be doing nothing by not thinking at all.

Dualism is binary thinking and it's the mind that comes up with the concept. The ancient pre-Taoist alchemists came up with Triplex Unity and that makes sense of everything. In dualism there is 'this' and there is 'that', while in Triplex Unity there is 'this', there is 'that' and there is 'both'. You can use the Vesica Pisces as a diagram for visualisation and it's the basis for understanding the Buddhist Egg and Flower of Life. There is the natural, there is the supernatural and there is a place where they 'overlap'. There is Spirituality and there is ego - since we're in an ego thread - and there is the place where those two 'meet'. So while you have astoundingly deep you also have astoundingly high, and ll of that - if you want it - within the sphere of your own consciousness. The Vesica Pisces is the 'model' for understanding 5D reality.

Basic mindfulness meditation is a powerful tool that can be used to reveal how transient and therefore powerless processes and states of mind are. At least for many, granted there are some forms of conditioning so ingrained, deeply buried and painful that meditation is contraindicated and professional guidance is advised before undertaking any meditation practice. That is it's not a good idea to go poking around and uncover them on one's own, generally speaking.

[Ewwerrin]

Edit: oops, didnt see 38 pages of responses! xD