Observer vs Observed

Originally Posted by MikeS80

It's funny you left out relationship lol

So you are not Brahman but merely in relationship with Brahman?

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

So you are not Brahman but merely in relationship with Brahman?

LOL, I have a personal relationship with brahman. you are just grasping at straws, I told you a million times, everything is brahman and brahman is everything, This means nothing is excluded from being brahman.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

LOL, I have a personal relationship with brahman. you are just grasping at straws, I told you a million times, everything is brahman and brahman is everything, This means nothing is excluded from being brahman.

Except that which is merely in association or relationship to/with Brahman.

Furthermore saying you have a personal relationship with Brahman is far different than you saying you are Brahman. That's the difference between dualism and non-dualism.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with dualism. It's perfectly fine and the basis for most religion/spirituality.

One without a second. I am Atman and Atman is Brahman, therefore Thou art That. That's the bare-bones and succinct basis of non-dualism. Everything else within the non-dual spiritual traditions is just the teachings and practices to bring about that Realization.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Except that which is merely in association or relationship to/with Brahman.

Furthermore saying you have a personal relationship with Brahman is far different than you saying you are Brahman. That's the difference between dualism and non-dualism.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with dualism. It's perfectly fine and the basis for most religion/spirituality.

One without a second. I am Atman and Atman is Brahman, therefore Thou art That. That's the bare-bones and succinct basis of non-dualism. Everything else within the non-dual spiritual traditions is the teachings and practices to bring about that Realization.

I am saying brahman is everything and everything is brahman and that is what I have a personal/individual relationship with because brahman in individual physical form is real, real meaning not an illusion lol.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I am saying brahman is everything and everything is brahman and that is what I have a personal/individual relationship with because brahman in individual physical form is real, real meaning not an illusion lol.

I have said more than once, that absolute, ultimate and physical reality are "all" the same reality. Individuality is required to have a personal relationship with brahman in physical form because absolute, ultimate and physical reality are "all" the same reality, thus absolute/ultimate reality is just as concrete as physical reality.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Mike!

The trouble with integrating paradoxically 'opposed' ideas like 'individuality' and 'oneness', I think , is that people, for the most part, 'limit' themselves to 'linear' logic/thinking.

There is a whole 'field' of knowledge subsumed under the heading 'systems thinking' which is full of insights pertaining to complex systems that may provide some 'resolution' of the 'dilemmas' at hand (there is no possibility of doing that otherwise IMO):

"Systems thinking is a holistic approach to analysis that focuses on the way that a system's constituent parts interrelate and how systems work over time and within the context of larger systems." (quoted from https://searchcio.techtarget.com/def...stems-thinking - there's more there on the subject, of course.)

Touching on this issue, from my book:

"The direction and purpose of the inherent power and intentionality [of Life] can be deduced from the cumulation and trend of results which have so far occurred. Progressively, the creative essence of Being has conspired to form an array of what, because of our material orientation, we’ve called ‘sub-atomic particles’; these have interacted and engaged in such ways as to produce ‘electrons’, ‘protons’ and ‘neutrons’ which, in turn, have combined to create the various ‘atoms’ and ‘molecules’ we have become familiar with; and these, through more concerted effort, have coalesced into cellular and multi-cellular units, in stages, generating ever more complex aggregations of body,a mind and spirit—the whole hierarchy and procession we [all experientially!] know as Life.

[Note, however, this statement is not strictly interpretable on an ‘individual’ basis. In fact, since every living entity is part of a larger one (except for the whole), the very concept of ‘an’ individual is a categorical oversimplification of the truth. As is clearly the case with multi-cellular organisms and the cells that comprise them, Life is not an individual phenomenon or attribute. Existence is an integrated continuum, with ‘lesser’ Life nested within ‘greater’ Life, from the very least, up to and including the totality of being. Actualization is therefore not just a 'private' matter, governed by 'individual' power and choice. The principle of ‘the survival of the fittest’, for example, is less a function of personal power and prerogative than of living context. While ‘individual’ units pursue goals of their 'own', the results of their initiatives are determined by the hierarchical bearing of entities 'they' are part of, as these [entities] go about effecting more comprehensive values in the same process.]"

Yes, oneness/wholeness is logical in reality/the right here and now. Anything else, such as abstract, subjective and conceptual thinking like the universe and everything in the universe is an illusion/not real, and the only thing that is real is brahman, the idea/concept that brahman is the only thing that is real is an abstract/subjective escape from the reality of what is now. The mind that escapes reality, is escaping life. Of course, these people want everything in physical form (the universe, ego-I/mind/body/intellect ect) to be an illusion/maya/not real so they can escape from "them" and reality/what is real. The real kicker is that these same people escape reality by talking about consciousness/awareness in a magical unseen "pigs fly" fantasy sense, thus they escape and ignore the purpose of consciousness/awareness, and that is for us humans to be conscious/aware of reality/what is real, and most importantly that absolute/ultimate reality aka brahman is the same exact thing as physical reality.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yes, oneness/wholeness is logical in reality/the right here and now. Anything else, such as abstract, subjective and conceptual thinking like the universe and everything in the universe is an illusion/not real, and the only thing that is real is brahman, the idea/concept that brahman is the only thing that is real is an abstract/subjective escape from the reality of what is now. The mind that escapes reality, is escaping life. Of course, these people want everything in physical form (the universe, ego-I/mind/body/intellect ect) to be an illusion/maya/not real so they can escape from "them" and reality/what is real. The real kicker is that these same people escape reality by talking about consciousness/awareness in a magical unseen "pigs fly" fantasy sense, thus they escape and ignore the purpose of consciousness/awareness, and that is for us humans to be conscious/aware of reality/what is real.

It's not mind escaping reality but realizing One is not merely body or mind and you are that One. It's realizing the human is but a form in that One
Consciousness.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Iamit

All arises in the illusion of difference where there is no difference whatsoever. Unfortunately that statement, which is part of the nonduality story, also arises in the illusion of difference (Maya):)

Fundamentally there is only what you are so in that respect there is no difference . There is however diversity and uniqueness that is associated to each individual . No two segments of an orange are the same and yet there is only one orange .

Originally Posted by Iamit

just take it as read that there is no escape from the illusion, but dont let that stop us:).

But if you see a rope as a rope where is the illusion?


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

It is individual soul self only that is supposed to do the God's work . Individual can not identify artificially with God without in any way doing any of His work . God's work is vast and individuals can only contribute to this God's work.

I appreciate your interjection but I was after JASG's answer, but as you only quoted one line of my post it doesn't answer my question in full .

So what is this individual soul self that is of the mind ... Is it real or illusory .. Depending on what your answer is will depend on sameness or difference between that and the world that is seen to be unreal or illusory .


x daz x

Originally Posted by God-Like

I appreciate your interjection but I was after JASG's answer, but as you only quoted one line of my post it doesn't answer my question in full .

So what is this individual soul self that is of the mind ... Is it real or illusory .. Depending on what your anger is will depend on sameness or difference between that and the world that is seen to be unreal or illusory .


x daz x

Perhaps this explains my understanding better than I'm explaining.

https://youtu.be/LmSsxH8-JcM?t=505