CONCORDE crash and Karma

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Many would say in a life full of suffering had that they do not want to return to this world.

I know that I have personally said this many times .

This statement made however is not encompassing the bigger picture .

When the soul has the urge to reincarnate it will be because there is something within itself that requires a particular experience due to the sum of it's parts already accumulated ..

In a way karma is likened to a magnetic force that simply brings to you what your spirit / soul requires for whatever reason that may be .



x daz x

You-here-now are only one (tiny) part of your soul (entity). You-here-now won't be back (you won't be destroyed either, just wake up to being part of your soul), but a fresh new part of your soul might incarnate in the physical future, past, or even present.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hey there back, Daz

OK, so where does time come into that equation? We have this linear perception of time when Spirituality will tell you that there is no time and science will tell you that time is local to the perceiver, and all of time affects all of time all of the time - so effect can precede cause or both can happen simultaneously. Tolle said that the past is memory and the future is expectation so there is only the Now. Motion is only the perception of 'here' and 'there' when to Spirit, everywhere IS.

Hey :)

I think as you correctly point out there are many ways to look at time / linear time and in a way it matters not if it's not an actual fact or it is like a dream because we have to operate and function in alignment with it . This is why we (for most) go to bed at night and go to work in the morning lol .

Are we mean't to dismiss our experiences had based upon a so called theory that linear time is illusory or are we mean't to take the cycles of nature / day and night seriously?

I see the illusory aspects of time solely related to the hand measures of a clock and not related to moments experienced, even as a continuous moment there is a thought of now and a thought of something that has already come to pass ..

It's not an illusory trick in that my parents passed over regardless of what time the clock say's, for are they here in the physical? No, so time is irrelevant in relation to experience/s had .

So where does time come into it in regards to what I originally said? Well we can either rubber stamp the day, month and year or we don't . I haven't got a clue what day my mum passed over, I can find out obviously but I don't need an anniversary date of her passing to remind me that she is no longer of the flesh ..

So what has time got to do with any of it? It changes nothing does it ..


x dazzle x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by inavalan

You-here-now are only one (tiny) part of your soul (entity). You-here-now won't be back (you won't be destroyed either, just wake up to being part of your soul), but a fresh new part of your soul might incarnate in the physical future, past, or even present.

Yes, I understand that the same persona will not come back . I do not see myself as the persona only .

I see a reflection of myself in regards to what I am .

I see soul aspects and soul levels reflecting self awareness and awareness of other's so it doesn't matter really what persona returns for there still will retain the same soul essence .

If you find life at present difficult because of the sufferings had and because of the way the world is, I don't see life changing too much if things remain similar next time round .

I say this often to my guides as a tongue in cheek remark when I speak about my day, and I say don't reincarnate guy's for the worlds gone mad!!

It is said in jest but has a serious undertone also .. because the decision to reincarnate is made from beyond the physical world .

If we were to sign up for reincarnation while we were still suffering of this world no-one in their right mind would sign ..

In a way it's a little sneaky signing up from beyond this world because once we are in it, we are in it up to our eyeballs and it's a little too late by then




x daz x

[Busby]

sorry, my mistake.








.

[Busby]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Our beliefs are formed in many ways and experience is the least of them. What we actually experience is the 'mechanical', physical process but our reality is formed from our perceptions - perceptions are reality. How our perceptions are formed is a different matter entirely but this is where our beliefs are created. Often beliefs are agenda.

I agree there.

So we're the product of random happenstance and there is no rhyme nor reason to existence?

I made the choice to be here, what you believe or not is up to you. Many people believe that we did indeed make the choice to be here while others didn't. If we didn't make the choice, then what?



I do. I'm currently taking a course to become a cognitive behaviour therapist because this is where my current interests lie with Spirituality. I want to know where my beliefs come from and how they are formed, what I don't want to do is pack my skull full of nonsense just so I can wear the Spiritual badge.

The question does arise for me because I am interested in such things. I want to know, I want to understand. Even in pre-Christian days people believed they were at the beck-and-call of the gods or stars that directed their fates, and karma seems to be another power that has taken on that same role. The old wives' tales are still very much alive and kicking.

So tell me if you will. Where does karma lie when there is no time, or all of time affects all of time all of the time? When karma - cause and effect - is a construct of a mind that's within linear time? You see, sometimes cause precedes affect, so how does that affect karma?

People have the Free Will to believe that there is such a thing as karma, that it is out to get you if you're not a good person. People also have the Free Will to reject anything that erodes the whole idea of karma. The bottom line, however, is that agenda and cognitive processes dictate beliefs and not Spirituality.

So we have the Free Will to use our imagination and have created our own worlds, can we not create a world in which we have Free Will or did we have the Free Will to create a world where we didn't have the Free Will, that we were victims of yet another external force of our own creations?

Or maybe the concept that we create our own realities is another pile of hocum? If we created our own realities, don't we also create everything that is within that reality - including the paranoia that karma brings?

I'll try Greenslade, to put my side of the discussion in another way.

Whether we like it or not each of us has arrived at the present. In fact the whole universe has arrived at the present. All of universal nature in all its diverse forms has arrived where we are. We (that which effects us directly)humans all have a name, a form, a mother and a father and each of us is wherever we are and each of is is as he or she is. I am at the moment sitting on a chair in front of a window which gives me a view of woods and occasionally persons going by. I am as I am thanks to all that has ever happened to me in all its forms - I can say, categorically, that the whole universe has played its role in creating the person I am now. The same is valid for everyone. There are those who are happy about having reached this 'stage' we call the present - a stage which constantly alters - and there are those who are very unhappy thanks to everything the universe has done to them or for them.

If I view this from a history of karma then obviously I did something, or most things right, that is according to some outlined plan or conception or system or whatever - so life has treated me accordingly.

I have apparently harvested what I have sown. Not that I can remember what seed I sowed. My neighbour, a much younger man doesn't have it so 'nice' and is in hospital fighting for his life and his whole family is worried sick. I don't know what he did or what he didn't sow. I'm not quite sure if he even knows what has been expected of him - which would be another theme.

However I now think, after decades of reading, hearing and discussing karma - and my bookcase is full, now look upon my being here - in this condition or situation we call the present, is due to evolution.
In fact had the word evolution existed before the human quest came into being as a search for an/the answer to the big question maybe we wouldn't have let our imagination(s) run such riot. Evolution is due to the acts of opposition or opposites each causing uncountable feedbacks to everything involved in opposition.

Like karma you say - yes, but in complete freedom. No Yoke. No boundaries.

We are all in the same position, so you'll understand that if I say each of us is body and mind this is valid for all of us in the human race. We like to hear ourselves say that we are 'souls' clothed in an incarnated (meat) body. Although we have not the slightest idea how this works.
So duly, I have now altered my perspective and say that it's our minds that are incarnated. And we underestimate the power the mind has and the part it plays in our lives both individually and collective.

This mind in which we have our part is the seat of all creation although formless and unseen. I'm not talking God here, that which we attribute to a god - morals, goodness, evil, light-giving, justice, miracles and so on, is a figment of our very, very fertile imaginations.

Look around the planet; all that is not organic has been created by human hands, hands led by human minds working inside human brains. All having slowly progressed through evolution.

A true wonder.

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey :)

I think as you correctly point out there are many ways to look at time / linear time and in a way it matters not if it's not an actual fact or it is like a dream because we have to operate and function in alignment with it . This is why we (for most) go to bed at night and go to work in the morning lol .

Are we mean't to dismiss our experiences had based upon a so called theory that linear time is illusory or are we mean't to take the cycles of nature / day and night seriously?

I see the illusory aspects of time solely related to the hand measures of a clock and not related to moments experienced, even as a continuous moment there is a thought of now and a thought of something that has already come to pass ..

It's not an illusory trick in that my parents passed over regardless of what time the clock say's, for are they here in the physical? No, so time is irrelevant in relation to experience/s had .

So where does time come into it in regards to what I originally said? Well we can either rubber stamp the day, month and year or we don't . I haven't got a clue what day my mum passed over, I can find out obviously but I don't need an anniversary date of her passing to remind me that she is no longer of the flesh ..

So what has time got to do with any of it? It changes nothing does it ..


x dazzle x

Hey there Daz

If I remember rightly we've talked about this before. I remember - within the context of subjective experience - how as a time-travelling consciousness I went back and influenced my past self. And yes, I did think of false memory. For me it's glimpses of other perceptions of reality that change the rules because there - being as objective as I can be - is an instance of effect preceding cause. Or something. The cause of future 'me' had the effect of changing past 'me', which became one of the causes of the effect of present 'me'. Regardless of clocks we still have the perception of time being linear because we get out of our beds in the morning, we go through the day and we'll climb back into our beds at night. And in between the sun goes from this point on the horizon to that point, inexorably.

What doesn't time-travel, though, is our feelings. My father is no longer in the flesh but he's still here just the same. For my mother, she's still here after a fashion as much as dementia allows but in her heart she's lived in the time when she can join my father.

And sometimes the whole point is that time doesn't change anything. That way we can tell what is changeless and what isn't.

Originally Posted by Busby

I'll try Greenslade, to put my side of the discussion in another way.

Whether we like it or not each of us has arrived at the present. In fact the whole universe has arrived at the present. All of universal nature in all its diverse forms has arrived where we are. We (that which effects us directly)humans all have a name, a form, a mother and a father and each of us is wherever we are and each of is is as he or she is. I am at the moment sitting on a chair in front of a window which gives me a view of woods and occasionally persons going by. I am as I am thanks to all that has ever happened to me in all its forms - I can say, categorically, that the whole universe has played its role in creating the person I am now. The same is valid for everyone. There are those who are happy about having reached this 'stage' we call the present - a stage which constantly alters - and there are those who are very unhappy thanks to everything the universe has done to them or for them.

OK, I'm happy with that and I would say the very same thing.

Originally Posted by Busby

If I view this from a history of karma then obviously I did something, or most things right, that is according to some outlined plan or conception or system or whatever - so life has treated me accordingly.

Or did Life's Purpose play its part and not karma?

Originally Posted by Busby

I have apparently harvested what I have sown. Not that I can remember what seed I sowed. My neighbour, a much younger man doesn't have it so 'nice' and is in hospital fighting for his life and his whole family is worried sick. I don't know what he did or what he didn't sow. I'm not quite sure if he even knows what has been expected of him - which would be another theme.

Perhaps your sick neighbour has sown Life's Purpose/Karmic Obligations. That would be a more likely candidate for external agency if that's what you're looking for.

You go to work and your boss puts money in the bank. You do that enough times and you can afford your lifestyle. Karma doesn't put money in the bank, that's how banks work. If you had been a Roman you would have believed that Saturn, the god of wealth, had favoured you in the way that you believe karma has favoured you.

Originally Posted by Busby

However I now think, after decades of reading, hearing and discussing karma - and my bookcase is full, now look upon my being here - in this condition or situation we call the present, is due to evolution.
In fact had the word evolution existed before the human quest came into being as a search for an/the answer to the big question maybe we wouldn't have let our imagination(s) run such riot. Evolution is due to the acts of opposition or opposites each causing uncountable feedbacks to everything involved in opposition.

Evolution is another subject entirely but underpinning all evolution, Life can only come from Life so it didn't begin with our evolution from a sludge-pool of chemicals and random happenstance. The protein chains that support Life- regardless of how basic they are - can only come from existing protein chains.

Originally Posted by Busby

Like karma you say - yes, but in complete freedom. No Yoke. No boundaries.

We are all in the same position, so you'll understand that if I say each of us is body and mind this is valid for all of us in the human race. We like to hear ourselves say that we are 'souls' clothed in an incarnated (meat) body. Although we have not the slightest idea how this works.
So duly, I have now altered my perspective and say that it's our minds that are incarnated. And we underestimate the power the mind has and the part it plays in our lives both individually and collective.

This mind in which we have our part is the seat of all creation although formless and unseen. I'm not talking God here, that which we attribute to a god - morals, goodness, evil, light-giving, justice, miracles and so on, is a figment of our very, very fertile imaginations.

Our minds are - regardless of how great they are or not - are second-stage processors of reality and it is consciousness that survives so-called death.

We didn't know anything about gravity until Newton but cavemen knew of its effects. And so with the Soul, just because we don't know how it works it doesn't mean we don't have one. What it can mean, though, is that beyond the greatness of what our minds have achieved thus far there is still so much we know we don't know, and we don't know what we don't do. That's the real marvel of it, what is in front most likely far, far outweighs what is bother past and here now.

I used to work in mental health so I understand how the mind can create 'alternative' realities because of chemical balances or cognitive disorders in the brain - or even as the result of emotional traumas.But aren't you talking about karma in a god-like fashion?

Did you also know that religious/Spiritual people are predisposed to that because of a gene? Not to mention religion/Spirituality fulfilling basic human needs as shown my Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and Pavlov's Dogs. Not to mention cognitive function/dysfunction. All of those underpin the power of the mind.

Originally Posted by Busby

Look around the planet; all that is not organic has been created by human hands, hands led by human minds working inside human brains. All having slowly progressed through evolution.

Where does karma fit in with that picture, or are those human minds, brains and hands directed by karma?

Originally Posted by Busby

A true wonder.

I watched a sunset the other night, I watch sunsets most nights because I find them a marvel. Mankind's brains, minds and hands have yet to create anything close to a sunset or a sunrise in terms of 'mechanical' achievement, and every one of them not only entirely unique but single moments in history.

Talking of brains....... A recent hypothesis is that your brain contains quantum-capable microtublules, and although quantum theory is still very much a fledging science we are gaining more understanding of quantum biology. If God is the Universal Field - and by the way religion talks he is, you're already quantum-entangled with him. Take a good sniff at the smells in the woods around you, that's quantum mechanics in action. Did you know that the European swallow navigates using quantum mechanics? Its eyes have detectors that can detect minute changes in how the earth's magnetic field changes according to its orientation with it.

What I say is that I don't have much truck with karma, and the more people talk about it the more it becomes mentality and not belief.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hey there Daz

If I remember rightly we've talked about this before. I remember - within the context of subjective experience - how as a time-travelling consciousness I went back and influenced my past self. And yes, I did think of false memory. For me it's glimpses of other perceptions of reality that change the rules because there - being as objective as I can be - is an instance of effect preceding cause. Or something. The cause of future 'me' had the effect of changing past 'me', which became one of the causes of the effect of present 'me'. Regardless of clocks we still have the perception of time being linear because we get out of our beds in the morning, we go through the day and we'll climb back into our beds at night. And in between the sun goes from this point on the horizon to that point, inexorably.

What doesn't time-travel, though, is our feelings. My father is no longer in the flesh but he's still here just the same. For my mother, she's still here after a fashion as much as dementia allows but in her heart she's lived in the time when she can join my father.

And sometimes the whole point is that time doesn't change anything. That way we can tell what is changeless and what isn't.

Hey G.S

It boils again to awareness doesn’t it . Where is the starting point? How many times has one gone back in so called time to change events? Is the thought attained in the first instance the actual first instance lol . Perhaps we can literally go round in circles always chasing our own tail in this regard until we venture up at the point where it all started ..

What is apparent however is that no matter how flexible and bendy so called time is, we have to abide by the time lines of those life experiences had . You can’t go back and forward in time to change past and future events unless you go backwards and forwards to a point in time where one exists in order to make changes .

So on one hand you get a bunch of folk speaking along the time lines and time as illusory but on the other hand they do actually have to abide by how life is presented within our environment be it earth or mars or a specific dimension for a specific duration of experience ..

We are governed by the natural laws of each planetary / dimensional vibration are we not? and just because each dimension is different doesn’t change the laws in effect that govern them ..

I agree with what you said about being able to tell what is changeless and what isn’t and the ending of a physical experience is a change that doesn’t effect the changeless but what does change is how the changeless experiences life and that is a worthy note to make ..

I see these as real experiences apposed to an illusory / dreamy one’s and this is why it is a fact that peeps that are no longer of the physical experience cannot turn up in the flesh for dinner or help you with your chores ..

Now if we relate those real experience that begins and ends then it can be measured between the moment it began and the moment it ended .

There are many spiritual theories presented that will water down the experience from time being a concept only and there isn’t anyone actually here that can experience being a person and such likes .

I don’t see impermanence or change in a way where it waters down life in reflection of self .


x dazzle x

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey G.S

It boils again to awareness doesn’t it . Where is the starting point? How many times has one gone back in so called time to change events? Is the thought attained in the first instance the actual first instance lol . Perhaps we can literally go round in circles always chasing our own tail in this regard until we venture up at the point where it all started ..

What is apparent however is that no matter how flexible and bendy so called time is, we have to abide by the time lines of those life experiences had . You can’t go back and forward in time to change past and future events unless you go backwards and forwards to a point in time where one exists in order to make changes .

So on one hand you get a bunch of folk speaking along the time lines and time as illusory but on the other hand they do actually have to abide by how life is presented within our environment be it earth or mars or a specific dimension for a specific duration of experience ..

We are governed by the natural laws of each planetary / dimensional vibration are we not? and just because each dimension is different doesn’t change the laws in effect that govern them ..

I agree with what you said about being able to tell what is changeless and what isn’t and the ending of a physical experience is a change that doesn’t effect the changeless but what does change is how the changeless experiences life and that is a worthy note to make ..

I see these as real experiences apposed to an illusory / dreamy one’s and this is why it is a fact that peeps that are no longer of the physical experience cannot turn up in the flesh for dinner or help you with your chores ..

Now if we relate those real experience that begins and ends then it can be measured between the moment it began and the moment it ended .

There are many spiritual theories presented that will water down the experience from time being a concept only and there isn’t anyone actually here that can experience being a person and such likes .

I don’t see impermanence or change in a way where it waters down life in reflection of self .


x dazzle x

hey there Daz

Yep, it boils down to awareness an d it starts with us being the point of origin for our reality.

Regardless of all the twaddle people talk about time not existing, it exists anyway. Time is local though, and a clock ticking at a static location in space ticks at a different rate than one on earth, because time is relative to speed and even though we orbit the sun, the sun is zooming across space at a rate of knots. We have a very linear perspective of time but science says that's not the case.

So if you are going back in time, how does that change karma? Can effect precede time?

Consciousness itself isn't bound by causal laws the same as the physical body, the consciousness is epiphenomenal so that means it doesn't play by the rules of time as we know it, not gravity and the like. So what if we become conscious that our consciousness can time travel? What if it's not just in sci-fi movies that we can send messages to ourselves - isn't my consciousness as a boy not the same consciousness as me as an adult? Did my consciousness actually time travel and the effect was the cause?

There are many concepts on how dimensions work, and also on how many there are. Some say the mathematical model is ten dimensions of causality and two dimensions of pure consciousness while others say there is an infinite number. What we don't know is how the dimensions are inter-related or if time would even exist in another dimension. Or if time is a dimension or not.

Being a medium I know people have had their Loved Ones around them after they'd passed, and even helped them choose curtains. So while their Loved Ones may not be having dinner, they can still be there for dinner. So the rules that govern this dimension don't necessarily govern that dimension. And for Spirit there is no time, so does that mean Spirit is free of karma?

I can understand the 'need' for time, we speak of Spiritual development but that only happens across a time period and I'm not sure the human mind can cope with there being no time. In that context it gives us an experience of growth and development and I can understand where that can make sense Spiritually. Similarly with so many other things.

But my question is where does karma sit when the perception of time is non-linear? Is it still valid when effect precedes cause?

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

hey there Daz

Yep, it boils down to awareness an d it starts with us being the point of origin for our reality.

Regardless of all the twaddle people talk about time not existing, it exists anyway. Time is local though, and a clock ticking at a static location in space ticks at a different rate than one on earth, because time is relative to speed and even though we orbit the sun, the sun is zooming across space at a rate of knots. We have a very linear perspective of time but science says that's not the case.

So if you are going back in time, how does that change karma? Can effect precede time?

Consciousness itself isn't bound by causal laws the same as the physical body, the consciousness is epiphenomenal so that means it doesn't play by the rules of time as we know it, not gravity and the like. So what if we become conscious that our consciousness can time travel? What if it's not just in sci-fi movies that we can send messages to ourselves - isn't my consciousness as a boy not the same consciousness as me as an adult? Did my consciousness actually time travel and the effect was the cause?

There are many concepts on how dimensions work, and also on how many there are. Some say the mathematical model is ten dimensions of causality and two dimensions of pure consciousness while others say there is an infinite number. What we don't know is how the dimensions are inter-related or if time would even exist in another dimension. Or if time is a dimension or not.

Being a medium I know people have had their Loved Ones around them after they'd passed, and even helped them choose curtains. So while their Loved Ones may not be having dinner, they can still be there for dinner. So the rules that govern this dimension don't necessarily govern that dimension. And for Spirit there is no time, so does that mean Spirit is free of karma?

I can understand the 'need' for time, we speak of Spiritual development but that only happens across a time period and I'm not sure the human mind can cope with there being no time. In that context it gives us an experience of growth and development and I can understand where that can make sense Spiritually. Similarly with so many other things.

But my question is where does karma sit when the perception of time is non-linear? Is it still valid when effect precedes cause?

Hey :)


I am not heavily into the science of things regarding what can be proven or not, I am more of a hands on practical guy who notices a flower bloom or a ripe apple fall from it's branch at a certain stage of it's life's journey. You have said something similar in regards to this 'in that context it gives us an experience of growth and development' .

The apple seed cannot experience the seed and the tree and the fruit of it unless there is a process involved and in effect . The physical realm is the ideal environment and the apple seed has to abide by it's design, that is why you don't get a full grown tree from a seed in a blink of an eye isn't it ..

People can argue all day long (excuse the pun) that linear time is not real or true, but let them manifest a mature apple tree from a seed in the now moment . They can't .

Another funny thing that came to mind yonks ago is when my nan passed over to the world of spirit when I was about 11 years old. For some reason I started to put my thoughts out to her (wherever she was at the time) lol and I used to tell her about my day's at school.

Long story cut short, I had my first reading with a medium when I was 20 because at this point I was having lots of awakenings and visions, well my nan came through immediately and said in a lovingly way that I didn't need to keep talking to her everyday for her to know what has been going on in my life hehehe ..

She said in a nice way that she was extremely busy in the spirit world and she has her jobs to do .. Now when I hear all this new age 'now' moment stuff it's blown out of all proportion I would say in such a way where peeps think that there is some floating now moment that doesn't constitute movement and change that can be monitored /recollected ..

You see this brings forth the topic on the akashic records for every thought and deed is recorded and there requires an element of time in order for there to be such recordings .

So even the spirit world activity that doesn't entertain time as we know it there will still be a reference of time and this is why my nan said what she did because she was busy doing stuff. Peeps all the time can become absorbed in the moment and they don't know where the day has gone, this is a classic example of what I am saying, but while you were absorbed within the moment, you still was aware of what you were doing and you can recollect your day..

In regards to your question 'So if you are going back in time, how does that change karma? Can effect precede time?

Perhaps it is possible to create more karma by trying to go back in time to erase it . lol .

Isn't this the butterfly effect, when one course of action is changed to then create a similar outcome but in a different way ..

I don't see that one can 'get out' of anything in this way it just creates more of a mess further down the line ..

I see a process in effect and karma needs to either be worked through or transmuted which basically are the same thing ..


I appreciate the chat!!


x daz x