Dependent origination

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Killing the mind seems more like a metaphor to me as well. An open state of being is simply ‘open’.

I've never seen any teacher say "killing the mind." Have you?

What is the cause of someone not having an open state?

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by running

one without goals is dead

We don't have goals when we are asleep, or when we are not into our beliefs and opinions and thoughts, yet we are still fully alive, even more so I would say. We are more aware of what actually is, and not just the created stuff from conceptual thought, so we are more aware and awake without mental images and thoughts and goals.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I've never seen any teacher say "killing the mind." Have you?

What is the cause of someone not having an open state?

I don’t know about others experiences but for me ‘killing off’ seems more about, ‘putting an end too’ ..which makes sense to my own experience.

What is the cause of someone not having an open state?

Perhaps a mind that dictates how things are, rather than how things are as they are?

Then of course you have a whole complex array of ‘programming’ set up in the body in this way..

‘This is how it is’

Rather than..

‘This is how it could be!’

An open state would be curious about everything yet not contained by anything!

[running]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Why are you open to the divine and others are not?
Or do you have no idea or interest in such things?



If nothing is preventing the experience of it, why is it not experienced?

Seems like how you teach has some logic flaws in it.

I guess you may believe bliss just happens for some and not others and there are no reasons why.

I believe the reason is identifying with the "ego" and thought and such things. Which is called "mind" by some teachers.

your jumping to conclusions. the coversation was about bliss. it wasn't about practice.

if you look back to the previous conversation about the author whom i responded about you will see i said psychological practice can be helpful. but the practice is not the reason. where one ultimately arrives doesn't require mental practice to be experienced.

to be clear perhaps for some people the awakening to bliss, to silence is completely without practice. i believe this happens for some people.

for most people it requires strong devotion and a practice. i could mention things i have found to work for myself if you wish. im not in the belief that there is a specific road for all. i know for me i came upon some out of the box practices. i believe there are many ways to the same place.

[running]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

We don't have goals when we are asleep, or when we are not into our beliefs and opinions and thoughts, yet we are still fully alive, even more so I would say. We are more aware of what actually is, and not just the created stuff from conceptual thought, so we are more aware and awake without mental images and thoughts and goals.

i think again you may have junped to some conclusions. i in ways agree with what you said. what i was alluding to is one whom doesn't consider the future, doesn't have intentions of providing for oneself, cant survive in a world that requires food, and shelter. some may survive. but if the world didn't consider tomorrow it would be a sad state of affairs and death to most fairly quickly.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by running

to be clear perhaps for some people the awakening to bliss, to silence is completely without practice. i believe this happens for some people.

for most people it requires strong devotion and a practice.

We have different beliefs but really we should. We have unique lives, unique experiences, unique understanding, unique insights, unique use of language.

Like in the above, I never would use the word bliss. That word has never been a part of my "spiritual" vocabulary. Just reminds me of unconscious uplifting emotions. Awakening to me has to do with transcendence and insight. Understanding and being aware of more. That word bliss seems like some drug like high to me. Not one of heightened awareness and freedom from the known. But then maybe I'd use that word if I was brought up in some religion, or philosophy or community or whatever where it was used in that context.

Also I don't see realization as being caused by having a practice or not having a practice. It comes about through insights into self. Practices may help, may not, I guess that depends on the one doing them and what they are doing exactly. I'd guess experience, contemplation, understanding, awareness, focus, concentration, would be more important than doing a practice or not doing one. That word devotion sounds like worship to me. Like to a deity or god or guru or something? I'd not use that word either. Though, surrender I can see. But surrender is different than devotion or worship.

Devotion, practice, bliss, chakra's, mother earth, divine mother, that all seems like concepts from Hinduism, or perhaps some "hippy" new age type western thing based on Yoga and loosly on Hinduism. I am agnostic about chakra's. No idea if they exist or are just made up.

Series I - Chapter 61 - 'The Desire for Bliss - Krishnamurti
Seeking a result is the continuation of self-projection; result, however lofty, is the projection of desire.

https://jkrishnamurti.org/content/se...1-desire-bliss

[Phaelyn]

Krishnamurti uses the word bliss in these two quotes.

Meditation is not the pursuit of an invisible path leading to some imaginal bliss. The meditative mind is seeing, watching, listening, without the word, without comment, without opinion, attentive to the movement of life in all its relationships throughout the day.

Meditation is not the pursuit of pleasure and the search for happiness. Meditation, on the contrary, is a state of mind in which there is no concept or formula, and therefore total freedom. It is only to such a mind that this bliss comes unsought and uninvited. Once it is there, though you may live in the world with all its noise, pleasure and brutality, they will not touch that mind.

https://www.azquotes.com/author/8281...urti/tag/bliss

I would have substituted the word silence for bliss in the second paragraph though. Just a personal preference.

The Germanic root of bliss is related to the word “blithe,” which connotes a drifting, careless, and heedless quality, and the Old English derivative was specifically used to refer to “earthly merriment.” This is a far cry from the word’s ubiquitous use in yoga studios and spiritual retreat centers.

http://lightlabcreations.com/wisdom/...s-it-truly-is/

[Shivani Devi]

I substitute the words "joy" or "happiness" for "bliss" and whatever joy or happiness one experiences needs to be more than just a fleeting emotion, like those associated with temporary desires and attachments associated with existence in the physical.

If whatever Spiritual practice one is doing doesn't result in feelings of a deep heartfelt pleasure, it either means they are doing it wrong or the path just isn't for them.

This is my take on it.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I substitute the words "joy" or "happiness" for "bliss" and whatever joy or happiness one experiences needs to be more than just a fleeting emotion, like those associated with temporary desires and attachments associated with existence in the physical.

If whatever Spiritual practice one is doing doesn't result in feelings of a deep heartfelt pleasure, it either means they are doing it wrong or the path just isn't for them.

This is my take on it.

I agree. I'd probably go with the words, peace and lightness. The words "liberation and transcendence" seems to fit my experience too. Love for all, a greater sense of love and acceptance is in there too for me.

It's not a fleeting emotion, but it can go away and does unfortunately. Seems like peeling an onion to me. Lot's of layers to go. Lot's of bouncing around in states too. But then when ego states come back, they seem like some layers are gone for good.

Funny how this thread does not have anything to do with Dependent Origination. Looks like the Buddhist forum is just one big thread at a time to chat, share opinions and debate