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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Lifestyle > Vegetarian & Vegan

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Old 31-01-2020, 03:14 AM
Spiritual Mike Spiritual Mike is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair
So do all animals that are deliberately killed when humans need to eat food (domesticated or wildlife). With this topic of fish it's once again a matter of ecology, and not human projection of ''rights''. If it's about rights than the dolphins and the bears shouldn't eat fish too, as fish ''suffer'' at the hands of other animals as well.

Veganism conflates ethics with ecology/environment. As I've done volunteering for a number of environment and nature organizations over many years I've come across a fair number of vegans and this conflation and inability to see that the two (animal welfare and environment) don't always match is a painful show to watch.

This is about ecology, not ''suffering''. If it was about suffering than no human or animal should exist in this world because their breeding will continue to perpetuate suffering. So ask yourself if this is really about ''suffering'' or something else.

The difference between a bear eating a fish and human eating fish are quite vast. The bear only intends to kill the one fish or enough fish to feed him and his family. He also likely has no real other options than fish to survive, unlike the modern human being who mostly who has options from the grocery store. So we can choose to try commit the least suffering possible.

Also the bear does not have trawlers which deplete the ocean of billions of sea life, including non target species. The bear also doesn't have factory farmed fish systems, where fish are crowded and suffer from not being able to move freely, similar to the lives of chickens and other creatures who cannot move in cages or highly crowded and dirty sheds in factory farms.

We also don't expects bears to be moral agents, but just because they can't doesn't mean we as humans shouldn't try to make considerate choices and try to commit the least amount of harm possible in our given situation.

For those reasons and more it is clear that there's a major difference between a wild animal hunting what they need for survival and humans mass breeding and mass producing animals for the purpose of eating them in absurd numbers and far far beyond what our actual need to eat them would be (I don't believe we actually need to eat them anyway and I'm doing fine as a vegan).
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Old 05-02-2020, 07:33 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Originally Posted by Gem
People will have a variety of ethical stances, but I take a purely nutritional standpoint, and from that perspective there is no such thing as bad food. Fish is nutrient dense, a leading protein source, rich with essential fatty acids, A,B,D and K vitamins and some minerals. Some folks might not want to eat fish, but that only means they need to get the nutrients from other food sources.

The whole problem with ethical eating is not eliminating animal products per se, but eliminating animal products at the expense of adequate nutrition. As we eliminate more food options from our diets it becomes increasingly difficult to get the nutrition we need, so personally I don't advocate eliminating any food options. For example, vegans eliminate a vast array of animal products, but they also present with a host of issues related to poor nutrition and the majority of them go back to animal food to save their deteriorating health. It's remarkable that vegan eating is socially projected as 'good' both ethically and nutritionally. It can be a healthy way of eating, but you need to know nutrition and take a few supplements. Most people don't know these things, so they lack essential nutrients, and their heath deteriorates.

That said, this is my comment - don't restrict your diet to the detriment of your nutrition. If you really need dietary advice, see a properly qualified dietitian

Agreed. Purely objectively, a vegan diet is an extremely poor choice for an ominivore species and in particular does not tend to meet the needs of the brain, which is an energy hog & represents ~20% of our baseline metabolism (humanity). Nearly all other bodily systems also require components only or best sourced from animal sources and nearly all vegans are (even severely) deficient in a few key nutrients which are difficult to adequately supplement.

If you can tolerate dairy and eggs, then a vegetarian diet may suffice, but if like a marjority of adults round the globe you cannot consume much if any dairy (or just find whole unprocessed dairy a bit rich in its natural, most recommended and best utilised form), then a regular omnivore's diet is best, with as many local and organic, minimally processed products as possible.

So in that regard, fish too should be local and/or wild caught, ideally, having been sourced in a sustainable manner. Due to pollution and overfishing, the fact is many fish-based cuisines will probably have to transition to consuming more meat in future. Wild caught fish which clean enough to eat are likely to be more of an occasional treat in many parts...so that there's still some left to sustain their (fish) population.

Peace & blessings
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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Old 06-02-2020, 12:36 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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@Spiritual Mike; Not sure how your post relates to mine (?). I was mentioning how ecology and ethics may be conflated, and increasingly they are (from my experience) conflated in environmental groups. Keeping chickens is a good example. I'm not sure what bears not being moral agents adds to that, you got me confused on that :S.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries
So in that regard, fish too should be local and/or wild caught, ideally, having been sourced in a sustainable manner. Due to pollution and overfishing, the fact is many fish-based cuisines will probably have to transition to consuming more meat in future. Wild caught fish which clean enough to eat are likely to be more of an occasional treat in many parts...so that there's still some left to sustain their (fish) population.

Peace & blessings

It will depend on the specific fish, sea region, and how it was caught. It's not as clear cut, and based on research I'll have to revisit my first post here, although, globally it's not looking great. Pangasius from Asia is really best avoided, as are most conventional fishing practices in the developing world. With mackerel, salmon, trout, and herring it will depend. Cod and tuna are endangered.
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Old 15-02-2020, 02:15 PM
Pagandell Pagandell is offline
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Originally Posted by Spiritual Mike
Well it's not good for the fish that suffocate and die in the nets or those that have no space to swim in a crowded factory farmed fish tank. It's also not good for the millions of dolphins, sea turtles and other marine life that might unintentionally be killed because they get caught in sea nets.

It's also has health risks such as mercury and saturated fat.
I think pulling fish out of the sea is one of the most tortuous things we do to animals. Fish are such peacefull and elegant creatures.
And all the this talk about animal flesh having protein and nutrients or what not of cause it does they fly swim and walk like we do.
Plants are different they grow in the ground.
I know vegetarians who have the most beautiful and healthy looking children that have a have a certain aura and vibe about them.
How many times does an angel fall.

How many people lie instead of talking tall.

quote David Bowie Black Star.

Last edited by Pagandell : 15-02-2020 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 16-02-2020, 03:19 PM
Frivolimous Frivolimous is offline
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There are lots of reasons to be vegetarian or vegan, so asking if it's 'that bad' could mean many different things!

- Is it because you believe it to be morally wrong to eat living creatures? Then where do draw the line? Plants are technically alive, so Jainists only eat things derived from living things (ie. nuts, fruits, milk). Some people draw the line at some level of brain capacity; Fish don't actually have emotions and chickens aren't that smart (even though they do have emotions).
- Is it because you don't believe in mistreatment of living creatures? Then you should definitely not eat milk or eggs. What about honey? Do you care about "abuse" of bees?
- Is it for environmental reasons? Because raising livestock in the modern day has a much higher carbon footprint than growing crops, so you should especially not eat beef, but chicken and fish isn't quite as bad, and milk or eggs is kind of OK (it's still not efficient as a purely vegan diet).
- Is it for health reasons? Because studies do show that lower meat and animal product consumption is actually healthier, and recently people are making a big deal about Patrik Baboumian who is the world's strongest man - and a strict vegan!

According to all the points, eating fish is not as 'bad' as eating cow flesh and arguably it's not as bad as drinking milk.
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