The Madness of Nonduality.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by zorkchop

Un-Seeker . . .

Try not to get too caught up in the dilemma. The principle has been around forever but has been over-shadowed by the gleeful pursuit of either / or in anything and everything . . . the theories of philosophy / religion / psychology and even spiritual to a degree succumbing to the entertain values of endless banter. Slowly . . . VERY slowly . . . the individual will recognize that s/he has had enough . . . and must look elsewhere when and if actual discovery of greater Truth is desired. Until then . . . wordplay prevails.

One of the founding principles of the psychic realms is to discover what works . . . by first learning what does NOT work. Since mind can conjure up most anything . . . believable or not . . . this takes forever.

Keep it all simple in the search. You’d no doubt recognize the principle but but perhaps dismissed it in favor of the more entertaining avenue. Most do. I did too. Understanding the depth of this principle is the key . . . and yet . . . it is again just the start. Ways to uncover all of this is right in front of you. It is neither hidden nor secret . . . but simply unrecognized and quickly dismissed . . . and it certainly takes all the sport out of many mental dilemmas and trades it all in for understanding . . . which is NOT an easy section of the Path to walk.

It is not unusual to underestimate the capacity of mind especially if one has bought into the bad press mind gets from tradition. It may be why its ability to end the search is dismissed until dismay with practise sets in.

[zorkchop]

Please don’t get me wrong . . . mind is just about all we know. For a greater number of incarnations than I care to put a number to . . . all we have known is the mental ( and emotional / physical ) approach. Mind can do absolutely fabulous things and discoveries. It should never be underestimated . . . but appreciated for what it is and why it was designed they way it was.

It is only . . . when the individual begins to discover . . . that mind cannot come to terms with many of the forays into Greater Truth. Mind can pretend . . . and find work-arounds . . . but never give lasting answers.

And so . . . one at a time . . . an individual begins to see the limitations of the mind . . . and works to get a glimpse beyond it. It takes “beyond forever” to get to this point. There are a relative few that wish to even try.

If the mind satisfies all for whatever individual . . . they are fortunate indeed . . . and they should enjoy their state of consciousness for as long as it fulfills them.

[Unseeking Seeker]

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@ zorkchop ... much appreciated

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[Iamit]

Originally Posted by zorkchop

Please don’t get me wrong . . . mind is just about all we know. For a greater number of incarnations than I care to put a number to . . . all we have known is the mental ( and emotional / physical ) approach. Mind can do absolutely fabulous things and discoveries. It should never be underestimated . . . but appreciated for what it is and why it was designed they way it was.

It is only . . . when the individual begins to discover . . . that mind cannot come to terms with many of the forays into Greater Truth. Mind can pretend . . . and find work-arounds . . . but never give lasting answers.

And so . . . one at a time . . . an individual begins to see the limitations of the mind . . . and works to get a glimpse beyond it. It takes “beyond forever” to get to this point. There are a relative few that wish to even try.

If the mind satisfies all for whatever individual . . . they are fortunate indeed . . . and they should enjoy their state of consciousness for as long as it fulfills them.

Why is it assumed that mind cannot give those answers? Is it simply because it has been swallowed that tradition says it cant?

Notice that mind solves problems that are referred to it by the organism. Why should the problem of spiritual concern be any different? Mind does what it always does and looks at the possible solutions and resonates with the one it feels will work for the character it serves.

[zorkchop]

Please Iamit . . . don’t let this concern you. All of the above is not an assumption . . . it is a known perception . . . but gained ONLY after one has put in the time and effort to actually get beyond mind and perceive all of this. Mind is designed and geared to function in specific ways . . . and cannot go beyond itself. So perhaps . . . the first discovery is . . . that there IS “something” beyond the mind . . . a factor that mind HATES to consider . . . since it cannot directly address what is beyond itself.

Each individual . . . one-at-a-time . . . and after more incarnations that most would like to know about . . . finally has enough of minds banter and begins to tiptoe beyond mind . . . much to the apprehension of mind itself and the rather uncertainties of Soul Itself. Finally . . . Soul gains in perspective and confidence.

Bottom line . . . mind is NOT Soul . . . and Soul is NOT mind.

That fact alone sets mind on fire.

The absolutely necessary passion to even WANT to edge beyond mind is a totally frightening adventure . . . and the individual finds that s/he is all on their own . . . until sincerity is in shown in the efforts put forth . . . and with sincerity . . . comes assistance . . . slowly at first . . . but with increasing clarity comes greater assistance.

The number of individuals on the face of this planet the have gone through this is probably one-tenth of one percent. Obviously . . . the number in all of existence is far greater . . . but still incredibly small.

The old adage of “When the student is ready . . . “ is not empty words.

Most will try to edge beyond mind and then stumble and retreat a number of times before real perception is gain. The design of “Existence” . . . the lower psychic world schoolroom and the upper pure worlds of True Spirit . . . ( an incredibly generic wording just for designation ) . . . is so designed because it absolutely works . . . with each baby step earned . . . there are NO free passing grades.

So again . . . Iamit . . . don’t let this concern you. There is MUCH to learn in the lower worlds. The incredible . . . almost extraordinary and herculean passion necessary to even begin to edge beyond mind . . . is . . . more rare than I wish to state. We all learn at our own rate and cannot be pushed beyond ourselves. As can be seen on this board . . . people fight to justify and strengthen their position . . . which is made easier now with the over-abundance of personal opinion and web sites offering more of the same that has been offered for centuries. Another maxim . . . argue for your limitations and sure enough they are yours. People are here to demand and advocate that their current position is right . . . which . . . is necessary for their own confidence.

Enjoy where you are . . . and love mind . . . if that’s what fulfills you . . . and in NO way do I mean to be condescending here. “The Path” is a tough adventure . . . to be sure. Just enjoy where you are . . . for as long as it works for you.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by zorkchop

Please Iamit . . . don’t let this concern you. All of the above is not an assumption . . . it is a known perception . . . but gained ONLY after one has put in the time and effort to actually get beyond mind and perceive all of this. Mind is designed and geared to function in specific ways . . . and cannot go beyond itself. So perhaps . . . the first discovery is . . . that there IS “something” beyond the mind . . . a factor that mind HATES to consider . . . since it cannot directly address what is beyond itself.

Each individual . . . one-at-a-time . . . and after more incarnations that most would like to know about . . . finally has enough of minds banter and begins to tiptoe beyond mind . . . much to the apprehension of mind itself and the rather uncertainties of Soul Itself. Finally . . . Soul gains in perspective and confidence.

Bottom line . . . mind is NOT Soul . . . and Soul is NOT mind.

That fact alone sets mind on fire.

The absolutely necessary passion to even WANT to edge beyond mind is a totally frightening adventure . . . and the individual finds that s/he is all on their own . . . until sincerity is in shown in the efforts put forth . . . and with sincerity . . . comes assistance . . . slowly at first . . . but with increasing clarity comes greater assistance.

The number of individuals on the face of this planet the have gone through this is probably one-tenth of one percent. Obviously . . . the number in all of existence is far greater . . . but still incredibly small.

The old adage of “When the student is ready . . . “ is not empty words.

Most will try to edge beyond mind and then stumble and retreat a number of times before real perception is gain. The design of “Existence” . . . the lower psychic world schoolroom and the upper pure worlds of True Spirit . . . ( an incredibly generic wording just for designation ) . . . is so designed because it absolutely works . . . with each baby step earned . . . there are NO free passing grades.

So again . . . Iamit . . . don’t let this concern you. There is MUCH to learn in the lower worlds. The incredible . . . almost extraordinary and herculean passion necessary to even begin to edge beyond mind . . . is . . . more rare than I wish to state. We all learn at our own rate and cannot be pushed beyond ourselves. As can be seen on this board . . . people fight to justify and strengthen their position . . . which is made easier now with the over-abundance of personal opinion and web sites offering more of the same that has been offered for centuries. Another maxim . . . argue for your limitations and sure enough they are yours. People are here to demand and advocate that their current position is right . . . which . . . is necessary for their own confidence.

Enjoy where you are . . . and love mind . . . if that’s what fulfills you . . . and in NO way do I mean to be condescending here. “The Path” is a tough adventure . . . to be sure. Just enjoy where you are . . . for as long as it works for you.

It is not a known percection but merely a traditional opinion. It is of concern for as long as tradition continues to undermine (condesend) the alternative experience, as it would be if I said enjoy the pointless delay of your practise. But instead will say that there is room for both approaches, depending on the character of the seeker.

[zorkchop]

Good grief . . . Iamit . . . what other conclusions than "opinion" would be expected from the mental approach?

And "character of the seeker" would be a good summary of much of what has been said.

Betcha "pointless delay" felt good to express, huh?

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by zorkchop

Good grief . . . Iamit . . . what other conclusions than "opinion" would be expected from the mental approach?

And "character of the seeker" would be a good summary of much of what has been said.

Betcha "pointless delay" felt good to express, huh?

Yes its a pleasure to join you in condesention. Actually, as Niz said to some seekers, the point of practise for some is to despair with practise, which is far from being a pointless delay :)

Goodbye. Be well and good luck.

[iamthat]

Agree with zorkchop. The mind cannot understand that which is greater than the mind. Which is frustrating for the mind because the mind likes to put things into neat little mental boxes and then it believes that it has understood.

This is nothing to do with traditions or assumptions. This comes from penetrating to those realms of consciousness where mind does not exist.

Iamit may quote from Nisargadatta to support his opinions, but let us consider other things which Nisargadatta says:

Distrust your mind and go beyond. [Then you will find] the direct experience of being, knowing and loving.

To go beyond the mind, you must be silent and quiet. Peace and silence, silence and peace - this is the way beyond. Stop asking questions.

Just look away from all that happens in your mind and bring it to the feeling "I am". The "I am" is not a direction. It is the negation of all direction.

And regarding the need for practice:

Try to be, only to be. The all-important word is "try". Allot enough time daily for sitting quietly and trying, just trying, to go beyond the personality with its addictions and obsessions. Don't ask how, it cannot be explained. You just keep on trying until you succeed. If you persevere, there can be no failure. What matters supremely is sincerity, earnestness; you must really have had surfeit of being the person you are; now see the urgent need of being free of this unnecessary self-identification with a bundle of memories and habits. This steady resistance against the unnecessary is the secret of success.

Meditation is a deliberate attempt to pierce into the higher states of consciousness and finally go beyond it. The art of meditation is the art of shifting the focus of attention to ever subtler levels, without losing one's grip on the levels left behind. ... But you must be energetic when you take to meditation. It is definitely not a part-time occupation. Limit your interests and activities to what is needed for you and your dependents' barest needs. Save all your energies and time for breaking the wall your mind had built around you. Believe me, you will not regret.

Peace

[zorkchop]

Iamit . . .

I have no idea if you are up for any kind of adventure . . . but . . . IF you can read the offered posts with an idea towards simple generic information . . . and no loftiness or condescension . . . you might come to some differing conclusions.

There is little “luck” involved. Effort, discipline, and focus is not a matter of luck.

iamthat . . .

Yes . . . quite. Tasing the word “Try” is a great way to begin the rather risky foray into the truly unknown. This post was begun with the idea of the either / or approach. Stepping beyond mind . . . learning about the levels of Existence beyond mind . . . does NOT n any way suggest that someone can then do without mind . . . especially in these lower psychic worlds. You learn about both . . . which leads to a deeper understanding of Existence as the Whole that IT is. No one here in the psychic worlds can exist for long without using one of the greatest tools ever offered Soul Itself . . . and that is mind. Without mind . . . these worlds would not exist at all. Both the approach of mind and of Soul Itself is necessary to understand the Whole of Existence. It is NOT an either / or question.

Stepping beyond mind slowly yet steadily reveals why mind acts and does as it does . . . what it’s purpose is . . . how to live and act within the mental worlds if and when necessary . . . and then what lies beyond.

The “methodology” of maneuvering beyond mind uses techniques and tools that mind cannot use. Mind was not designed to use them. Soul uses a distinctly and decidedly different approach when interacting within the upper pure worlds . . . another simple generic term . . . then mind does in these psychic worlds.

And without a doubt . . . to slow the mind and begin to focus inside . . . the Inner Worlds so to speak . . . as it settles the physical body . . . slows the emotions . . . and with practice slows the mind. This somewhat trance level leads to opportunity.

Another viable maxim . . . to understand anything . . . one must get above it and then look back and gain realization. The only way to understand mind is to get above it . . . via the Soul body if you will . . . or perhaps the perception of Soul . . . and learn from that. One can rarely if ever gain understanding while immersed in the middle of an issue or state of consciousness.

Once an individual has taken even the slightest advance beyond mind . . . it is discovered that there is no real need to “kill” or “destroy” any level of mind. Each individual mind is under OUR control. WE each are responsible for what we have taught our own mind. The detrimental habits are replaced with more beneficial ones . . . so we cause them when necessary as we carry on our own personal adventures in the greater areas of Existence.

Again . . . there is no condescension or patronage here at all. This is just simple and rather generic information . . . but without a doubt . . . mind will be most reluctant to entertain. It threatens the control mind has had on each and every one of us for eons.

I do agree . . . it might be time to back out of this one. Enough has been offered to brighten the interest of anyone who is sincerely attracted . . . and has offended the others who wish to have none of it.