AS IT IS

Originally Posted by Moondance

If I remember correctly, The Power Of Now indirectly points to a non-dual state - or no-separation sensibility - but it’s wrapped up in a package which can reinforce the sense of doership - all this efforting to be in the now etc. So I think that it subtly keeps a degree of reflectivity (and its attendant me-ing) in place.

Ordinarily (and reflectively) we sense ourselves as the center of things - and existence, the cosmos, this… that’s going on, as something secondary that happens around us. In the immediacy of the wide-awake real-time state there is a figure-ground reversal. The ‘me’ takes a back seat to the radiant sovereignty of THIS - as it is. You could say that me-ing gives way to Be-ing.

To me The Power of Now seems a little superficial, but to be honest I haven't read it however I have listened to a lot of Tolle's talks on YouTube. He does mention meditation but I think it's mostly mindfulness of breathe and that is a focused meditation. Usually focused meditations don't get one to the non-dual experience, just a more benign version of ego. The more advanced open techniques can take one beyond that to the non-dual experience. Escape from the observer trap.

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

To me The Power of Now seems a little superficial, but to be honest I haven't read it however I have listened to a lot of Tolle's talks on YouTube. He does mention meditation but I think it's mostly mindfulness of breathe and that is a focused meditation. Usually focused meditations don't get one to the non-dual experience, just a more benign version of ego. The more advanced open techniques can take one beyond that to the non-dual experience. Escape from the observer trap.

I didn’t know that Tolle was an advocate of meditation techniques. But yes, benign versions of ego can be a trap in spirituality - the witness can be especially tricky.

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Of course it makes no difference in terms of total connecton to Oneness for it was already Oneness not being aware of isness, So the move to becoming aware of it, by meditation or any other means, makes no difference to the total connection to Oneness that has always been , is now, and always will be. We have been here before Moondance:).

Oh yes, we have been here before, and you know what I’m going to say. :)

Nothing is required for Oneness to be the case - it is always already the case. But realisation IS required for the realisation of Oneness to be the case.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Moondance

Oh yes, we have been here before, and you know what I’m going to say. :)

Nothing is required for Oneness to be the case - it is always already the case. But realisation IS required for the realisation of Oneness to be the case.

Yes I did know you were going to say that:), just as you know what I say next. It was already Oneness not realizing so no increase in connection to Oneness occurs by that realization. Always a pleasure to dance with you. Be well my friend in this time of anxiety. I see you are also in the UK. Not Wales by any chance?

Originally Posted by Moondance

I didn’t know that Tolle was an advocate of meditation techniques. But yes, benign versions of ego can be a trap in spirituality - the witness can be especially tricky.

He talks about mindfulness quite often, however it seems he advocates skipping right to the end-state of being. It just doesn't seem very practical to me and 99.99999999999% of people will never get there like that. Without a solid understanding of the technique and its purpose followed by lots of diligent practice it's hard to see how one can attain a mindful state and forget about a state of non-dual awareness.

One can read about and listen endlessly to talks about hitting a fastball, but until one practices it's not going to amount to much. Sure, they can talk about it and convince themselves they in fact can hit a good heater, but put them in a 80+ MPH cage and it'll be whiff city.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

He talks about mindfulness quite often, however it seems he advocates skipping right to the end-state of being. It just doesn't seem very practical to me and 99.99999999999% of people will never get there like that. Without a solid understanding of the technique and its purpose followed by lots of diligent practice it's hard to see how one can attain a mindful state and forget about a state of non-dual awareness.

One can read about and listen endlessly to talks about hitting a fastball, but until one practices it's not going to amount to much. Sure, they can talk about it and convince themselves they in fact can hit a good heater, but put them in a 80+ MPH cage and it'll be whiff city.

The effect for others of the states judged to be inferior, (because not reached by practise), cannot be Known by those not having the experience of others, and ignore that those states are also fully Oneness manifest as are the states reached by practise.

Originally Posted by Iamit

The effect for others of the states judged to be inferior, (because not reached by practise), cannot be Known by those not having the experience of others, and ignore that those states are also fully Oneness manifest as are the states reached by practise.

I know the difference in my state of being between prolonged periods of daily practice and prolonged periods of no practice, specifically meditation. It's stark. Night and day. So I do see both sides of that coin.

So yes, I think I have a good perspective on the difference between practice and no practice and anyone who's done a fair amount of meditation over the years will say the same if they go on and off practice. Neuroscience backs this up too.

This is just common sense. There is no free lunch. Can't develop muscle by thinking about lifting weights. You actually have to lift weights and when you stop muscles will atrophy back to baseline.

Spirituality is no different.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I know the difference in my state of being between prolonged periods of daily practice and prolonged periods of no practice, specifically meditation. It's stark. Night and day. So I do see both sides of that coin.

So yes, I think I have a good perspective on the difference between practice and no practice and anyone who's done a fair amount of meditation over the years will say the same if they go on and off practice. Neuroscience backs this up too.

This is just common sense. There is no free lunch. Can't develop muscle by thinking about lifting weights. You actually have to lift weights and when you stop muscles will atrophy back to baseline.

Spirituality is no different.

Lol I agree. The benefits of meditation is so great.

But the evidence of succesful meditation can be discovered in 17 seconds. I always do this to check if I still know how to meditate and to check myself if I am really meditating or just lazily thinking with my eyes closed or sleeping in my chair. Lol

Often I think without even being aware that I am thinking. Because I get so used to it, and I got no comparative experience. But once I really check myself, and feel the difference, a succesful consistent pure focused pure awareness, focused and immersed completely in a the experience of an internally conjured sound or mantra, for 17 seconds, with absolute zero interruption or distraction in focus, means, I have not offered energetically contradictory thought patterns for 17 seconds. And since thought energy expands, every 17 seconds. What happens, is I will begin to feel emotional evidence, emotional manifestation, of relief, if I have succesfully maintained a pure quiet mind of no thought for 17 seconds. If I don't feel better, emotionally, I have been distracted, if I do, I have succesfully meditated. It feels like emotional relief to me. It feels lighter brighter or feels like relief. Like wooh, breath of fresh air.

This is scientifically based in how thoughts draw and expands. So if you don't feel noticable emotional relief, in 17 seconds, you're not actually meditating. You either got distracted.
Or in some rare cases you already feel mighty good, in which case, no need for meditation anyway. Can just replace meditation with authentic appreciation.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I know the difference in my state of being between prolonged periods of daily practice and prolonged periods of no practice, specifically meditation. It's stark. Night and day. So I do see both sides of that coin.

So yes, I think I have a good perspective on the difference between practice and no practice and anyone who's done a fair amount of meditation over the years will say the same if they go on and off practice. Neuroscience backs this up too.

This is just common sense. There is no free lunch. Can't develop muscle by thinking about lifting weights. You actually have to lift weights and when you stop muscles will atrophy back to baseline.

Spirituality is no different.

Yes you may well know the difference for yourself but of course you do not have the experience that somebody else has, and yet you still make the assumption that their experience must be inferior if not reached by practise. A huge, dubious, projection of your own experience onto somebody else who you do not know and have no idea what thier personal experience is like for them. Unfortunately such assumptions have often been made by tradition when faced with a new approach, rather than seeing that different approaches may suit different characters.

It is hoped that seekers are not intimidated and can regard thier own experience as valid despite the highly suspect invalidating agenda, and negative judgment of tradition.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by Moondance

Hi Ewwerrin, you seem to have crash landed into my thread… possibly by mistake. :)

I have to declare from the off that I’m not a believer in supernatural explanations involving individuated souls or toroidal vortexual fields and such. So we are probably too far apart to have a meaningful conversation - but thanks for dropping by anyway. :)

Hey Moondance. I was just sharing my perspective.

I also don't believe in super natural or minor natural. It's all just natural. I think soul (non-physical) and body (physical) are basically different perspectives of the same thing.

So what do you believe in, perhaps a unified field of one body, one soul and we're all made out of that? Or no soul perhaps? Just physical reality?