About Hinayana, Mahayana and Tantra

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Yes, but that didn't last did it.
The names themselves Mahayana and Hinayana seem to be invented (possibly after the fact) to enforce a split between schools of thought.

I believe/have faith that the Pali canon comes closest to what the buddha actually taught.
The fact that some monks later viewed the bodhisatva path as more "enlightened" or desirable in terms of doing good has no significance in the ability to become liberated from suffering.

WIth Love
Eelco

Again, it was never invented but was always there.

Also, the pali canon was just the first teachings that were presented. Doesn't make it the only source :)

The difference is Theravada doesn't believe one can be liberated in this life. The other paths that you believe are incorrect do just that.

So it seems you believe in teachings that don't promote liberation in this life and that one can only become an arhat if you are a monk where the others do teach that one can become a Buddha in this life and you don't have to be a monk.

Interesting stuff :)

Hmm you must have misunderstood what I believe.
I never said that other paths are incorrect. Only that I take the Pali Canon as my guide. It seems to suit me.

Also I do believe it is possible to find liberation in this lifetime and given some examples of people who claim or are said to have done just that over in the other thread where you asked for examples.

With Love
Eelco

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Hmm you must have misunderstood what I believe.
I never said that other paths are incorrect. Only that I take the Pali Canon as my guide. It seems to suit me.

Also I do believe it is possible to find liberation in this lifetime and given some examples of people who claim or are said to have done just that over in the other thread where you asked for examples.

With Love
Eelco

Can you post a link to that thread. Not sure which one you are referring to.

Just saying the path you believe is correct doesn't teach liberation. Especially if you are not a monk.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...60&postcount=6

Here was your question..
I think the path I believe in may differ from some theravan schools, whilst agreeing with others. Nothing is set in stone..

If anything I believe in a rather pragmatic practice of buddhism, trying theravadan practises and see which ones yield the promised results.. I leave the religional aspects to those who feel more in tune with those..

Mainly I get my meditation practice from books by mahasi sayadaw and do retreats and receive instruction at vipassana-dhammacari.com/main_eng.html


As my main go to texts I refer often to the Pali canon.
For now that is all the buddhist practise which does me some good.

With Love
Eelco

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...60&postcount=6

Here was your question..
I think the path I believe in may differ from some theravan schools, whilst agreeing with others. Nothing is set in stone..

If anything I believe in a rather pragmatic practice of buddhism, trying theravadan practises and see which ones yield the promised results.. I leave the religional aspects to those who feel more in tune with those..

Mainly I get my meditation practice from books by mahasi sayadaw and do retreats and receive instruction at vipassana-dhammacari.com/main_eng.html


As my main go to texts I refer often to the Pali canon.
For now that is all the buddhist practise which does me some good.

With Love
Eelco

Sounds good and good luck with your practice :)

All the best,

Tom

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Sounds good and good luck with your practice :)

All the best,

Tom

Thank you,

Do you believe liberation is possible?
If so what does that look like in your understanding?

With Love
Eelco

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Thank you,

Do you believe liberation is possible?
If so what does that look like in your understanding?

With Love
Eelco

While this is from KS it is still an amazing description of universal mind.

The Heart of Siva

The Heart, says Abhinavagupta, is the very Self of Siva, of Bhairava,

and of the Devi, the Goddess who is inseparable from Siva. Indeed,

the Heart is the site of their union (yamala), of their embrace (samghatta).

This abode is pure consciousness (caitanya) as well as unlimited bliss

(ananda). As consciousness the Heart is the unbounded, infinite light

(prakasa) as well as the freedom (svatantrya) and spontaneity (vimarsa)

of that light to appear in a multitude and variety of forms. The Heart,

says Abhinavagupta, is the sacred fire-pit of Bhairava.1

The Heart is the Ultimate (anuttara) which is both utterly transcendent

to (visvottirna) and yet totally immanent in (visvamaya) all created things.

It is the ultimate essence (sara). Thus, the Heart embodies the paradoxical

nature of Siva and is therefore a place of astonishment (camatkara), sheer

wonder (vismaya), and ineffable mystery. The Heart is the fullness and

unboundedness of Siva (purnatva), the plenum of being that overflows

continuously into manifestation. At the same time, it is also an inconceivable

emptiness (sunyatisunya).2 The Heart is the unbounded and

universal Self (purnahanta).

The Heart of Siva is not a static or inert absolute, however. In fact,

the non-dual Kashmir Shaiva tradition considers it to be in a state of

perpetual movement, a state of vibration (spanda)3 in which it is continuously

contracting and expanding (samkoca-vikasa), opening and closing

(unmesa-nimesa), trembling (ullasita), quivering (sphurita), throbbing,

waving, and sparkling (ucchalata). The intensity and speed of this move

ment is such that paradoxically it is simultaneously a perfect dynamic

stillness.4

The tradition states that the Heart is the enormous ocean (ambunidhi),

the ocean of light, the ocean of consciousness. The waters of consciousness

that in man are broken by countless polarizing and divisive waves (urmi)

may be easily brought to a state of dynamic stillness by the process of

immersion or absorption (samdvesa) in the Heart.

When one has realized the Heart, one has become One like Siva and has realized the power of creation.

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/4032...hiva+%2Bsutras



3.28. dānamātmajñānam

His only purpose for remaining in his body is to impart knowledge to others.

3.29. yo’vipastho jñāhetuśca

The one who rules the wheel of energies becomes the cause of inserting knowledge in others.

3.30. śvaśaktipracayo’sya viśvam

For him, this universe is the embodiment of his collective energies.

3.31. sthitilayau

This universe is the expansion of his energy in objective impressions and in the dissolution of those impressions.

3.32. tatpravṛittāvapyanirāsaḥ saṁvettṛibhāvāt

Although he is determined in creating, protecting and destroying the universe, even then he is not separated from the real state of his subjectivity.

3.33. sukhaduḥkhayorbahirmananam

He experiences his joy and his sadness just like an object, with “this-consciousness” separate from his being.

3.34. tadvimuktastu kevalī

Separated from pleasure and pain, he is established in real seclusion.

3.35. mohapratisaṁhatastu karmātmā

The yogī whose God consciousness is destroyed by this state of illusion is dependent on his action.

3.36. bhedatiraskāre sargāntarakarmatvam

He drives away the field of differentiated perceptions and enters into a new world of God consciousness.

3.37. karaṇa śaktiḥ svato’nubhavāt

The power of creation is the experience of every individual

True liberation is more than just a state of mind, it is a true being.

I see.
In my understanding this is not exactly what the Buddha taught as his prime teaching..
In fact they were quite simple.
1) there is Dhukka
2) there is the origin or cause of Dhukka
3) there is the cessation of Dhukka
4) there is the path leading to the cessation of Dhukka

I don't think Guatama Buddha ever talked about god consciousness his followers might have though.

WIth Love
Eelco

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

I see.
In my understanding this is not exactly what the Buddha taught as his prime teaching..
In fact they were quite simple.
1) there is Dhukka
2) there is the origin or cause of Dhukka
3) there is the cessation of Dhukka
4) there is the path leading to the cessation of Dhukka

I don't think Guatama Buddha ever talked about god consciousness his followers might have though.

WIth Love
Eelco

It is called Buddha Nature/ Primordial State.

DZOGCHEN
THE SELF-PERFECTED STATE
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

In the Dzogchen teachings the primordial state of the base
is not defined only as being void, but is explained as having
three aspects or characteristics, called the "three primordial
wisdoms": essence, nature, and energy.

The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual
and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals,
whether they are aware of it or not, whether they
are enlightened or in transmigration. It is said to be "pure
from the beginning" (ka dag), because, like space, it is free of
all impediments, and is the basis of all the manifestations in
existence.

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its
characteristic is that it manifests without interruption.4 The
explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding
the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure,
material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or
another of energy. To explain how both transmigration and
enlightenment originate, three ways in which energy manifests
are described. These three modes of energy are called
"tsel" (rtsal), "rolba" (rol ba) , and "dang" (gdangs), names
that cannot be translated into Western languages.

To understand the manifestation of energy as tsel, we can
take the example of what happens when a crystal ball is
placed near a window. The crystal is pure and transparent,
but when rays of light strike it, they refract into coloured
lights all around the room. These lights are not inherent to
the crystal itself, but manifest when the appropriate secondary
cause is present, in this case the sun's rays. The crystal
ball symbolizes the primordial state of the individual, which
consists of essence, nature, and energy. The coloured rays
which spread in the room are an example of the natural
manifestation of energy, appearing in relation to the individual
as an object. In the moment of the manifestation of
the energy of the primordial state, if one recognizes it as a
projection of one's own original qualities, one realizes oneself
in the dimension of pure vision. If the opposite happens
and one perceives the rays and colours as being external
to oneself, one manifests impure vision. Thus the cause
of both visions, samsara and nirvana, is the same: the manifestation
of the light of the primordial state.

As an example of rolba, we should imagine that instead
of the colours reflecting externally to the crystal, this time
they reflect inside it, not appearing outside the crystal but
within its own surfaces. In the same way, the energy of the
primordial state can manifest within its own dimension
"subjectively" in relation to the individual. This happens,
for example, in the bardo, the intermediate state between
death and rebirth, when the hundred peaceful and wrathful
divinities appear. They are not external to the individual,
but are the manifestations of his or her natural, self-perfected
qualities. The appearance of these divinities, however, only
arises for those who have, in their lifetime, received transmission
from a master, and applied the method of transformation
specific to the peaceful and wrathful divinities. For
an ordinary being there arises only the manifestation of
"sounds, rays, and lights," which may last only for an instant,
and most often are a cause of alarm.5 For this reason,
great importance is given in tantrism to knowledge of the
mode of energy of rolba, which is the basis of all the various
methods of transformation.

To understand dang we should think of the crystal itself,
and of its pure and transparent form. If we put a crystal ball
at the centre of a coloured mandala and walk around it, the
crystal will by turns appear to assume the colours of the
cardinal points of the mandala at which we successively
arrive, while at the same time remaining, in itself, pure and
transparent. This is an example of the inherent condition of
energy itself as it really is, in any kind of manifestation whatsoever.
Sometimes instead of dang the term "gyen" (rgyan)
is used, meaning "ornament," because in the state of contemplation
all manifestations of energy are "perceived" as
ornaments of the primordial state.

When the introduction has been given by the master, the
essence, nature, and energy are called the "three bodies of
the base." They correspond, in the path, to three aspects or characteristic conditions of the nature of the mind: the calm
state (gnas pa), movement ('gyu ba) and presence (rig pa) .
The calm state i s the condition o f the mind i n which no
thoughts arise. An example of this is the space that exists
between the disappearing of one thought and the arising of
another, a space that is usually imperceptible. The movement
is the manifestation of thoughts, without interruption.
An example is given in which the state without thoughts is
said to be like a calm lake, and the arising of thoughts to be
like the movement of fish in the lake. These two factors are
common to all beings. Presence,6 on the other hand, is as if
asleep in us, and it takes a master to awaken it through transmission.
Presence is the pure recognition without judgment,
of either the calm state or the movement. These three are
called the "three bodies of the path."

Much the same just expressed differently.

Think Buddhism is more male/mind and KS is more female/energy in the explanations.

If you are into history, KS tantra was first and many believe that is were Buddhist tantra derived from.

[jonesboy]

From the Lankavatara Sutra.

http://buddhasutra.com/files/lankavatara_sutra.htm

The Blessed One replied: The three self-natures, the eightfold mind-system, and the twofold ego-less-ness are all included in the Five Dharmas. The self-natures of things, of ideas, and of the six-fold mind-system, correspond with the Dharmas of appearance, name and discrimination; the self-nature of Universal Mind and Reality corresponds to the Dharmas of right-knowledge and "Suchness."

By becoming attached to what is seen of the mind itself, there is an activity awakened which is perpetuated by habit-energy that becomes manifest in the mind-system, from the activities of the mind-system there rises the notion of an ego-soul and its belongings; the discriminations, attachments, and notion of an ego-soul, rising simultaneously like the sun and its rays of light.

By the ego-less-ness of things is meant that the elements that make up the aggregates of personality and its objective world being characterized by the nature of Maya and destitute of anything that can be called self-substance are therefore un-born and have no self-nature. How can things be said to have an ego-soul? By the ego-less-ness of persons is meant is that in the aggregates that make up personality there is no ego-substance, nor anything that is like an ego-substance nor that belongs to it. The mind-system, which is the most characteristic mark of personality, originated in ignorance, discrimination, desire, and deed; and its activities are perpetuated by perceiving, grasping, and becoming attached to objects as if they were real. The memory of these discriminations, desires, attachments and deeds is stored in Universal Mind since beginning-less time, and is still being accumulated where it conditions the appearance of personality and its environment and brings about constant change and destruction from moment to moment. The manifestations are like a river, a seed, a lamp, a cloud, the wind; Universal mind in its voraciousness to store up everything, is like a monkey never at rest, like a fly ever in search of food and without partiality, like a fire that is never satisfied, like a water-lifting machine that goes on rolling. Universal mind as defiled by habit-energy is like a magician that causes phantom things and people to appear and move about. A thorough understanding of these things is necessary to an understanding of the ego-less-ness of persons.