How devoted are you to your beliefs?

Originally Posted by ketzer

Why is it, and/or how is it, that some people can become so devoted to beliefs that to the rest of us seem so patently ridiculous against the "facts" that we generally seem to agree on? Answers with a psychological bent get extra Karma points on this last one.

People own their beliefs and have invested so much time and effort in 'constructing' them that they defend them in the same way as others defend their homes or whatever else they own. Beliefs become the wealth and materialism of Spirituality, and because they are so deeply entrenched in the creation of the Spiritual persona they are also deeply ingrained in the ego construct. Essentially they become not just a part of the person's reality but the reality itself. When you've invested so much time and effort in your beliefs and they're an integral part of your being..... "I don't agree with your beliefs" can be perceived as "Your **** looks fat in that dress, and it smells."

How many Karma points is that worth? Shame I don't believe in Karma though.

Most if not all of your questions can be answered by psychology and not Spirituality, but seeing as how this is a Spiritual forum after all and most Spiritual heads collapse at the mere mention of psychology..... How much would our Spirituality benefit if we employed more objectivity with our beliefs and put them into a more realistic perspective? They're called beliefs for a reason after all, and where is the line drawn between beliefs and agenda?


Beliefs are the limits of the egoic mind, it's within how you deal with that that the Spirituality emerges.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

People own their beliefs and have invested so much time and effort in 'constructing' them that they defend them in the same way as others defend their homes or whatever else they own. Beliefs become the wealth and materialism of Spirituality, and because they are so deeply entrenched in the creation of the Spiritual persona they are also deeply ingrained in the ego construct. Essentially they become not just a part of the person's reality but the reality itself. When you've invested so much time and effort in your beliefs and they're an integral part of your being..... "I don't agree with your beliefs" can be perceived as "Your **** looks fat in that dress, and it smells."

How many Karma points is that worth? Shame I don't believe in Karma though.

Most if not all of your questions can be answered by psychology and not Spirituality, but seeing as how this is a Spiritual forum after all and most Spiritual heads collapse at the mere mention of psychology..... How much would our Spirituality benefit if we employed more objectivity with our beliefs and put them into a more realistic perspective? They're called beliefs for a reason after all, and where is the line drawn between beliefs and agenda?


Beliefs are the limits of the egoic mind, it's within how you deal with that that the Spirituality emerges.

Hence the value of forums such as this ... to 'see' how everything looks to others, not just everything else but how they 'see' 'you' as well.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

People own their beliefs and have invested so much time and effort in 'constructing' them that they defend them in the same way as others defend their homes or whatever else they own. Beliefs become the wealth and materialism of Spirituality, and because they are so deeply entrenched in the creation of the Spiritual persona they are also deeply ingrained in the ego construct. Essentially they become not just a part of the person's reality but the reality itself. When you've invested so much time and effort in your beliefs and they're an integral part of your being..... "I don't agree with your beliefs" can be perceived as "Your **** looks fat in that dress, and it smells."

How many Karma points is that worth? Shame I don't believe in Karma though.

Most if not all of your questions can be answered by psychology and not Spirituality, but seeing as how this is a Spiritual forum after all and most Spiritual heads collapse at the mere mention of psychology..... How much would our Spirituality benefit if we employed more objectivity with our beliefs and put them into a more realistic perspective? They're called beliefs for a reason after all, and where is the line drawn between beliefs and agenda?


Beliefs are the limits of the egoic mind, it's within how you deal with that that the Spirituality emerges.

I suppose so, but I have had my beliefs knocked out of me by life more then once, and that is one reason I am grateful for some of the suffering I have endured, or at least appreciate that it did me some good. When life comes easy for people, they may not see a need to question their beliefs. They may not see a need to seek for deeper answers and they may just keep going in the direction they have been. But when one struggles, one tends to wonder if they really understand what this life experience is all about, and questions lead to answers that do not fit with current beliefs. After a time or two of overturning the internal apple cart, one's mind tends not to close so tightly anymore, and even the absurd can be stored away for another look on some future rainy day. The more deeply one's block is carved, the more difficult it is to transform it into something else, and I expect time has a way of hardening the stone as well.


I don't really draw lines between spirituality and anything else. In the end, it is all one and insight can come from anywhere. I expect that so many (some?) in spirituality circles shun psychology and other science (or just make up their own) because they are afraid that what they see there will challenge their own beliefs and maybe upset their own apple cart. Instead they say science doesn't support their beliefs because scientists are closed minded. Perhaps there is some truth there. Scientists are somewhat to blame as they often overreach and claim knowledge of negatives that science has not given them, when it would have been more truthful to leave the question unanswered by science.

It also occurs to me that some seem to swing from one belief extreme to the next, and even to the opposite. One day they hate Eurasia and love East Asia, the next day the they are just as intense in the other direction. Perhaps, the safe harbor of being sure that what you believe is true, is better than floating around on the waves of an ocean of questions without any firm dry truths in sight. And so they move along the coast from safe harbor to safe harbor, claiming local allegiance to each one, never daring to venture out to sea, to see if perhaps there is something beyond that horizon. I suppose if the local canons keep firing at you as you enter harbor after harbor, you eventually have no choice but to head out to sea.

Anyway, I guess we can give you a few karma points for your answer even if you don't believe in it. After all, just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean life is not out to get you.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by ketzer

I suppose so, but I have had my beliefs knocked out of me by life more then once, and that is one reason I am grateful for some of the suffering I have endured, or at least appreciate that it did me some good. When life comes easy for people, they may not see a need to question their beliefs. They may not see a need to seek for deeper answers and they may just keep going in the direction they have been. But when one struggles, one tends to wonder if they really understand what this life experience is all about, and questions lead to answers that do not fit with current beliefs. After a time or two of overturning the internal apple cart, one's mind tends not to close so tightly anymore, and even the absurd can be stored away for another look on some future rainy day. The more deeply one's block is carved, the more difficult it is to transform it into something else, and I expect time has a way of hardening the stone as well.

I don't really draw lines between spirituality and anything else. In the end, it is all one and insight can come from anywhere. I expect that so many (some?) in spirituality circles shun psychology and other science (or just make up their own) because they are afraid that what they see there will challenge their own beliefs and maybe upset their own apple cart. Instead they say science doesn't support their beliefs because scientists are closed minded. Perhaps there is some truth there. Scientists are somewhat to blame as they often overreach and claim knowledge of negatives that science has not given them, when it would have been more truthful to leave the question unanswered by science.

It also occurs to me that some seem to swing from one belief extreme to the next, and even to the opposite. One day they hate Eurasia and love East Asia, the next day the they are just as intense in the other direction. Perhaps, the safe harbor of being sure that what you believe is true, is better than floating around on the waves of an ocean of questions without any firm dry truths in sight. And so they move along the coast from safe harbor to safe harbor, claiming local allegiance to each one, never daring to venture out to sea, to see if perhaps there is something beyond that horizon. I suppose if the local canons keep firing at you as you enter harbor after harbor, you eventually have no choice but to head out to sea.

Anyway, I guess we can give you a few karma points for your answer even if you don't believe in it. After all, just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean life is not out to get you.

Very 'rounded' (looking at the issue from all 'sides' of it) perspective, Ketz.

Salut!

Originally Posted by ketzer

I suppose so, but I have had my beliefs knocked out of me by life more then once, and that is one reason I am grateful for some of the suffering I have endured, or at least appreciate that it did me some good. When life comes easy for people, they may not see a need to question their beliefs. They may not see a need to seek for deeper answers and they may just keep going in the direction they have been. But when one struggles, one tends to wonder if they really understand what this life experience is all about, and questions lead to answers that do not fit with current beliefs. After a time or two of overturning the internal apple cart, one's mind tends not to close so tightly anymore, and even the absurd can be stored away for another look on some future rainy day. The more deeply one's block is carved, the more difficult it is to transform it into something else, and I expect time has a way of hardening the stone as well.

I tend not to hold onto beliefs for too long or even form them in the first place, because what they tell me is that I don't know. If I did know I wouldn't have to fill in the gaps. It's easy to say "I believe....." but understanding the reasons I have those beliefs takes courage sometimes, and a degree of honesty. And sometimes beliefs are avoidance, denial, dissociation..... For the most part for me, the beliefs I should be holding onto are 'confirmed' in some way or another, and if they're being knocked out of me then that tells me something about myself.


Often, as you say, they are a reflection of a closed mind

Originally Posted by ketzer

I don't really draw lines between spirituality and anything else. In the end, it is all one and insight can come from anywhere. I expect that so many (some?) in spirituality circles shun psychology and other science (or just make up their own) because they are afraid that what they see there will challenge their own beliefs and maybe upset their own apple cart. Instead they say science doesn't support their beliefs because scientists are closed minded. Perhaps there is some truth there. Scientists are somewhat to blame as they often overreach and claim knowledge of negatives that science has not given them, when it would have been more truthful to leave the question unanswered by science.

Many of the greatest scientists of all time - and even today - believe in God or have religious/Spiritual beliefs. Ask the same of anyone with any kind of Spiritual perspective and the chances are they'll shun anything other than Spirituality. That has nothing to do with Spirituality and everything to do with psychology. In Spirituality you have complete control over what you believe no matter how outlandish, but when it comes to your head not being straight or labelling yourself as Spiritual doesn't make you immune to the effects of gravity.....

Originally Posted by ketzer

It also occurs to me that some seem to swing from one belief extreme to the next, and even to the opposite. One day they hate Eurasia and love East Asia, the next day the they are just as intense in the other direction. Perhaps, the safe harbor of being sure that what you believe is true, is better than floating around on the waves of an ocean of questions without any firm dry truths in sight. And so they move along the coast from safe harbor to safe harbor, claiming local allegiance to each one, never daring to venture out to sea, to see if perhaps there is something beyond that horizon. I suppose if the local canons keep firing at you as you enter harbor after harbor, you eventually have no choice but to head out to sea.

Again that's not about beliefs, that's about a polarised mind and psychology - and a healthy dollop of an over-inflated ego. Empty barrels make the most noise.

Originally Posted by ketzer

Anyway, I guess we can give you a few karma points for your answer even if you don't believe in it. After all, just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean life is not out to get you.

Thanks for the points, much appreciated. It doesn't hurt to hedge your bets now, does it?

Life isn't out to get anyone - nothing happens TO and everything happens BECAUSE of you. We are "here to learn the lessons" or Spiritually poetic phrases of that ilk but that belief doesn't stand long when 'real Life' knocks on your door and your Spiritual beliefs that everything is sunshine and roses goes south. Most haven't quite managed to encompass Yin and Yang as regards the interconnectedness between Spirituality and 'real Life' so I guess Triplex Unity of Paradoxical Thinking is a long way off yet.

Originally Posted by davidsun

Hence the value of forums such as this ... to 'see' how everything looks to others, not just everything else but how they 'see' 'you' as well.

Seriously? You're playing that game again?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

f they're being knocked out of me then that tells me something about myself.

Yes, suffering can tell us something valuable about ourselves.

Many of the greatest scientists of all time - and even today - believe in God or have religious/Spiritual beliefs. Ask the same of anyone with any kind of Spiritual perspective and the chances are they'll shun anything other than Spirituality. That has nothing to do with Spirituality and everything to do with psychology. In Spirituality you have complete control over what you believe no matter how outlandish, but when it comes to your head not being straight or labelling yourself as Spiritual doesn't make you immune to the effects of gravity.....

Again that's not about beliefs, that's about a polarised mind and psychology - and a healthy dollop of an over-inflated ego. Empty barrels make the most noise.

I suppose in spirituality, with no rules to follow, one could have complete control over what they believe. Yet seldom do they. If they shun science, then that becomes a control over them. Anyway, the thinking mind has far less control over the whole mind then it thinks it has. So much of what "I" believe, emanates from the ego construct, which is beyond the thinking minds capacity to directly control. I can influence, but not control. Even my ability to influence, is dependent on the depth of the belief that I can.

Also, I am a bit perplexed. I see psychology interlinked with beliefs every bit as much as, perhaps more so, than truth. One can draw a separation in concept, but in practice, the two are almost always interdependent and linked. One arises from and in turn affects the other, like a dance where the partners take turns leading.

Thanks for the points, much appreciated. It doesn't hurt to hedge your bets now, does it?

Life isn't out to get anyone - nothing happens TO and everything happens BECAUSE of you. We are "here to learn the lessons" or Spiritually poetic phrases of that ilk but that belief doesn't stand long when 'real Life' knocks on your door and your Spiritual beliefs that everything is sunshine and roses goes south. Most haven't quite managed to encompass Yin and Yang as regards the interconnectedness between Spirituality and 'real Life' so I guess Triplex Unity of Paradoxical Thinking is a long way off yet.

I agree that life is not out to get us, yet perhaps our soul is. Perhaps it is out to get us to understand, and therefore it keeps pushing our life into areas that the thinking mind does not want to go. Perhaps the soul is the one who calls the dance.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Thanks for the points, much appreciated. It doesn't hurt to hedge your bets now, does it?

It 'hurts' to do that, if one has any integrity (in terms of being an agent of Life Itself - instead of just being self-serving), that is.

Originally Posted by ketzer

Yes, suffering can tell us something valuable about ourselves.

Yes it can, and that's the whole point I think.

Originally Posted by ketzer

I suppose in spirituality, with no rules to follow, one could have complete control over what they believe. Yet seldom do they. If they shun science, then that becomes a control over them. Anyway, the thinking mind has far less control over the whole mind then it thinks it has. So much of what "I" believe, emanates from the ego construct, which is beyond the thinking minds capacity to directly control. I can influence, but not control. Even my ability to influence, is dependent on the depth of the belief that I can.

Also, I am a bit perplexed. I see psychology interlinked with beliefs every bit as much as, perhaps more so, than truth. One can draw a separation in concept, but in practice, the two are almost always interdependent and linked. One arises from and in turn affects the other, like a dance where the partners take turns leading.

We have very little control over what we believe, surprisingly, because all of the control is with the subconscious mind and not the conscious mind. That's the scary part of all this because while we're busily thinking we're so autonomous that's a long way from how it is. Most Spiritual people don't want to hear about how these things work, ignorance as in not knowing and ignoring - is bliss.


Jung said the go is a sense of "I am" so yes, the ego construct is really where it all begins and when you understand that construct better you begin to have a better idea of your whole reality, However, that doesn't make it pretty and how you deal with that or not is something else. The ego construct is much more than your thinking mind, it's the sum total of your reality since you popped out of the womb but the good thing is that it's not all set in stone, over these past few months I've been changing much of what's already in there.


Your reality is defined by your definitions not your beliefs, and in psychology it's called programming your paradigm. If you define yourself as a Spiritual person your paradigm is set against whatever your own personal definitions of what it means to be a Spiritual person. So when you say "A Spiritual person is......" that becomes your reality/paradigm and everything you do is aligned with that. You reject/ignore what isn't and that's a survival mechanism from your so-called lizard brain an not your Spirituality.


Spirituality is built on psychology rather that interlinked, because psychology is the 'filter'. Truth is relative to one's own agenda and you believe what the truth is, because there are no facts in Spirituality. So if you believe something is the truth, all you have to do is look to your reasons. If you decide to be Spiritual and have those beliefs because..... It's the part after the because where the real self-awareness is ans it's where your whole Spiritual persona construct begins.

Originally Posted by ketzer

I agree that life is not out to get us, yet perhaps our soul is. Perhaps it is out to get us to understand, and therefore it keeps pushing our life into areas that the thinking mind does not want to go. Perhaps the soul is the one who calls the dance.

Life being out to get you is victim mentality and it's as good an example as to how what's in our skulls affects Spirituality. So you've been a bad person in a past life and karma is out to get you, do good things and you'll gain the karmic brownie points - which is why I don't believe in karma. "We are ere to learn the lessons" but school really sucks. The other problem is that sometimes Spiritual people can be very short-sighted, they can't see past that 'negative experience' so they have trouble in changing the victim mentality to preparation. You can't empathise with someone through opinion, you can only empathise with someone through your own experiences. You can't come out the other side bigger, better ans stronger if you've never gone into it in the first place. Defininng yourself as Spiritual and actually being Spiritual are two very different things.


"Change how you see and see how you change."
Zen quote

[davidsun]

Q.E.D. Ketz

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q.E.D.