Bahagavad Gita -- Chapter 6

Originally Posted by Topology

Nowhere does it say that Arjuna's motivation should be to please Krishna, it is simply to perform his duty.

His duty to who? To Krishna.
“Whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer or give away, and whatever austerities you perform—do that, O son of Kunté, as an offering to Me.” Bg 9.27

Originally Posted by Topology

Go back and read verses 54 through 64 of chapter 2. This is a description of total unattachment. It is not that you desire to be desireless, it is that you ARE desireless. There is a fundemental difference between desiring to be desireless and actually having no desire. You seem to be failing to understand the difference. When one is unattached, they have no desire. They also have no desire to remain desireless. They simply are desireless.

“The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness.” Bg 2.59
Thank you this verse completely proves my point only by experiencing a higher taste of attachment to Krishna can we be materially detached.

Originally Posted by Topology

You seem to have a desire to vanquish the atheist in the name of Krishna. Do you not derive personal pleasure in claiming the superiority of Krishna? How is this not a lust for you?

Some duties are pleasurable and some are not. I perform them regardless. At one point in my life I distributed Krishna’s books on the street for several years, it wasn’t particularly pleasurable but I did it anyway.

Originally Posted by Topology

Is not your duty to obtain union with the supreme? Is not your assault upon others a distraction from having a single minded focus on the supreme?

My “assault” is done in the service of Krishna and therefore it is non-different from meditating on Him directly.

Originally Posted by Topology

Slaying people in the name of God is NOT THE SAME as meditating upon God. In order to slay someone your attention must be on them, thus your senses are filled with the material and not filled with God.

There are 8 limbs of bhakti-yoga are hearing, chanting, remembering, worshiping, praying, serving, becoming an intimate friend and surrendering everything. All the limbs are equal and perfection can be attained through any of them. Therefore serving Krishna in terms a righteous battle is non-different from meditation on Krishna. The hard part of course is knowing that the battle is righteous. I can’t think of any righteous battles in that sense in Western recorded history. In practice both meditation and practical service are necessary and they support each other.

Huzzah I-Ching, you are consistent and I admire your answers and I respect your tenacity to your point of view despite my not being able to share it.

I offer Science's endeavor of throwing off the tyranny off the church as an example of a Western Righteous Battle.

Verse 3

http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/gita/gita6.htm

For the wise who seeks to attain yoga (of meditation or the equanimity of mind), Karma-yoga is said to be the means; for the one who has attained yoga, the equanimity becomes the means (of Self-Realization)

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-06-03.html

For the sage desirous of progress in the science of uniting the individual consciousness with the Ultimate Consciousness action is declared as the means; and for tone who has attained perfection in uniting the individual consciousness with the Ultimate Consciousness, cessation of action sis declared as the means.

http://asitis.com/6/

For one who is a neophyte in the eightfold yoga system, work is said to be the means; and for one who has already attained to yoga, cessation of all material activities is said to be the means.

This seems to suggest that the behavior of the initiate is different than the behavior of the master.

1) If the master's actions are the right actions, and the master ceases to act materially, should not the student be emulating the master and also cease material action?

And since no one else is participating right now, here's a question directly for you I-ching: When you obtain yoga, would you cease to be attacking atheists since that is material action?

[peteyzen]

My “assault” is done in the service of Krishna and therefore it is non-different from meditating on Him directly. originally quoted by i ching

Krishna does not need you to make others unhappy, this is your ego at play my friend, be careful, its shifting within you, merging with your religion. Remember that those whom you are attacking are also krishna. be gentle to them my friend, what we put out we get back.
Krishna teaches through love and enormous humility. he would not appreciate this method, genuine tho your efforts are they are soaked in ego, stop quoting scripture and start feeling humanity and embodying humility.

Originally Posted by Topology

I offer Science's endeavor of throwing off the tyranny off the church as an example of a Western Righteous Battle.

Science is intrinsically atheistic, and church were generally run by fanatics who had little understanding of the science of bhakti-yoga, although it still had its genuine saints. So neither side was particularly good from my perspective.

Science is based on the false assumption that we can know the Truth through our senses. Since our senses are obviously imperfect and limited such an attempt is futile. Real knowledge must be attain from higher authority such as the Vedas.

Krishna refers to the scientists and their technology in the following verses:

"They say that this world is unreal, with no foundation, no God in control. They say it is produced of sex desire and has no cause other than lust. Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world." Bg 16.8.
So-called technology is simply destroying the planet and only offering minor benefit to a minority of people on the planet.

Originally Posted by Topology

This seems to suggest that the behavior of the initiate is different than the behavior of the master.

1) If the master's actions are the right actions, and the master ceases to act materially, should not the student be emulating the master and also cease material action?

The idea is that the initiate should follow in the footsteps of the Guru and not try to imitate. If the initiate wants to become a master then they should do what the master did when they were an initiate.
"One who restrains the senses of action but whose mind dwells on sense objects certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender." Bg 3.9

Originally Posted by Topology

And since no one else is participating right now, here's a question directly for you I-ching: When you obtain yoga, would you cease to be attacking atheists since that is material action?

I attack atheism not atheists. I try to hate the sin and not the sinner, although I don't get that right always.

Attacking atheism is certainly not material action.
"Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion — at that time I descend Myself. To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millennium after millennium. " Bg 4.7 In previous ages Krishna would simply kill the atheists, literally. In this age that is not possible so the mood of his incarnation in this age is more to kill their demoniac mentality through preaching.

Originally Posted by peteyzen

Krishna does not need you to make others unhappy, this is your ego at play my friend, be careful, its shifting within you, merging with your religion. Remember that those whom you are attacking are also krishna. be gentle to them my friend, what we put out we get back.
Krishna teaches through love and enormous humility. he would not appreciate this method, genuine tho your efforts are they are soaked in ego, stop quoting scripture and start feeling humanity and embodying humility.

Thank for your advice I will try to be more gentle with the atheists, but to let their nonsense ideas go unchallenged would also be ego. Atheism is the greatest cause of unhappiness on this planet.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

Thank for your advice I will try to be more gentle with the atheists, but to let their nonsense ideas go unchallenged would also be ego. Atheism is the greatest cause of unhappiness on this planet.

I would have thought ignorance is the greatest cause of unhappiness.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

Science is intrinsically atheistic, and church were generally run by fanatics who had little understanding of the science of bhakti-yoga, although it still had its genuine saints. So neither side was particularly good from my perspective.

Science is based on the false assumption that we can know the Truth through our senses. Since our senses are obviously imperfect and limited such an attempt is futile. Real knowledge must be attain from higher authority such as the Vedas.

What you fail to understand about science, I-Ching, is that it is a method of inquiry, not a body of beliefs. Science does indeed explore the world we sense to derive knowledge about the world. But science has nothing to say, for or against about any religion or any God. Science is simply a way of investigating the world. In that, science can be perfectly compatible with your beliefs and my beliefs. Science is not atheistic. Science just has nothing to say about religion.

You see enemies where there are none.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

In previous ages Krishna would simply kill the atheists, literally. In this age that is not possible so the mood of his incarnation in this age is more to kill their demoniac mentality through preaching.

And hows that going for you? It sounds like your god has lost his teeth. No street preacher ever convinced me of anything. For that matter, no preaching ever convinced me of anything. Preaching doesn't hurt atheism. If anything, because you've made yourself a nuisance to others, people will choose to adopt an atheistic attitude towards the god you represent.