Forgiveness

Forgiveness

Forgiveness is so incredibly important. The reason we even have salvation is because of forgiveness. The only reason we have a chance at everlasting life is because of forgiveness. God forgives us for all of our wrong doings through the blood of Jesus.

If we are forgiven all of our sins, then we must forgive all sins commited against us. This is ALOT easier said then done because for most of us, it's hard to forgive sometimes.

To forgive or not to forgive is a choice, we all have free will and we make the choice to obey God's command to forgive or not.

What does the bible say about forgiveness?

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

Matthew 18:21-22
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Matthew 6:14-16
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

So, it's very clear that we must forgive as that is part of Love. I have a hard time with this sometimes myself, and sometimes it takes me a while to truly forgive. But, it's something that we must constantly work on, and praying about, because God forgives us so we must also forgive others too.

[theophilus]

Originally Posted by Triner

Disagree with this completely. Handing right and wrong over to interpretations of the Bible leads to things like The Inquisition, The Crusades, The Witch Trials and Burnings. All of those were validated using the Bible.

Where does the Bible validate any of these things? I have studied the Bible a lot and I can't find anything in it to justify them.

The things you mentioned all occurred at a time when the Church had been corrupted by false teaching and was no longer following the Bible. In fact, the Bible wasn't even available in many languages, so that only people who knew Latin could read it. One of the results of the Protestant reformation was that the Bible was translated into languages people could understand and this widespread knowledge of the Bible's actual teaching eventually led to the ending of the evils you mentioned.

Originally Posted by theophilus

Where does the Bible validate any of these things? I have studied the Bible a lot and I can't find anything in it to justify them.

Me neither! In fact, they go against, and are direct violation, of Biblical principles!

Those terrible things that were done, were done by satan and people that follow him. No believer in Jesus would ever do such a thing.

[Uma]

Originally Posted by Bluegreen

I agree with both Rivendoa and Peteyzen.
What I wanted to add to my post but did not is that in any kind of relationship there is hurting and being hurt, sometimes unknowingly, sometimes intentionally.
I know that we meet ourselves in life and that people are mirrors which can help us if we pay attention.

The thread is about forgiveness and that is the subject I addressed--not the aftermath.
I am fortunate in that nothing as devastating as losing a loved one the way it happened to the author of the book happened to me. To be honest, I do not know how I would react.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify what this thread is about: In the OP I asked for victory stories about forgiveness, specifically: "What's the secret of forgiveness? Is it even achieveable?" What is implicit in these questions is that it entails a process - a beginning, middle and end/aftermath. I opened it up to all kinds of sharing.

I'm glad you bring up the point about mirroring. I agree that people, and indeed all of us, mirrors what is within us. My tarot cards deal with this also in more depth. What a grudge or inability to forgive usually indicates is that there is something inside of us that is blocking the forgiving. Sometimes it is in the conscious, sometimes in the subconscious. This is where therapists and karma comes in. As Gem suggested, there is more going on when there is a grudge.

My teacher has taught me the value of appreciating when these triggers come up, because it is an opportunity to transform conditioned patterns of behaviour I may not have been aware of before. And life has a way of helping that process because if we have not dealt with the wounding the first time, the same situation will come around again and in a louder way and so on until the pattern has been transformed.

And I love Caroline Myss' teaching of woundology and the idea of Sacred Contracts, that we prearrange woundings. This also ties into a much larger picture around "forgiveness" because when you see your trials in life in a bigger way, you realize that they were there for you as stepping stones and you have grown because of them, not in spite of them. Many people who reach this level of realization are beyond "forgiveness" and become actually "thankful" to the person or situation that they had to forgive. But that is a long way from the therapist's couch for most people. This is also part of the idea of "the bulletproof spirit".

I would argue that no one but a Christ being (someone who completely expresses the Christ consciousness) can GENUINELY forgive completely. Christ lives in a space of unconditional love. [For Christians I'll rephrase "a Christ being" as equivalent to "being born again in Christ" with reservations, because one can be partially born again not permanently, but it's that idea....being one with...] And 100% forgiveness is a natural emanation of that Christ consciousness of unconditional love. Compassion, forgiveness - these are spiritual qualities of very high vibration. Who among us expresses that love in fullness and in every moment? The more one lives in the consciousness that "I and my Father are one" the more natural it becomes to forgive - because then we experience the entire Universe as the larger part of our own being. I believe that when Christ commanded "Love thy enemy" it was an invitation not only to forgive and forget but to attain His level of consciousness which has no boundaries.

So this is how I see forgiveness, moving in stages and related to one's stage of awareness.

Forgiveness involves body, mind and spirit - all levels of being.

[Uma]

LisaLisa,

You shared a lot of excellent quotations. I'm glad you brought up the one about judgment

Originally Posted by LisaLisa

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

because the act of "forgiving" is based or predicated on "judging". Although there are some injustices pretty much everyone would agree are unjust, some can be misconstrued. In the eyes of the burglar for instance, they might have been driven to desparation to steal and in their eyes, society "owes them" but we might judge the person based on our own ethical code.

And see how your post generated ideas about "right and wrong". Everyone thinks they are right. I would bet that few violations of justice are done by someone who thinks they are doing something wrong. And for those that do, their own sense of guilt makes them repent, maybe, or for a little while. And for a few, they are deluded - like the pilots who crashed into the twin towers of 9/11.

Asking the question "What is "rightness" all about?" is important because if one is to forgive, the forgiving is based on their own ideas of right and wrong, justice and injustice. It's tougher when the mind is closed. Sometimes feeling a need to forgive can lead to discoveries about one's own assumptions. Perhaps the person was doing what came naturally or had good intentions... Just ideas here.

The emotions involved in forgiveness cloud the judgment too, not only the preconceptions about right and wrong.

[Uma]

Originally Posted by LisaLisa

Matthew 6:14-16
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

These are powerful because the idea of a conditionally loving Father brings out a lot of (unnecessary) fear in people but I interpret it in terms of mystical experience rather than literally. To me, "Father" is Higher Self, Cosmic Consciousness, the intelligent Universe. Then it makes sense to me. It's not about judgement (some Big Guy judging you and metting out reward/punishment) but about mirroring and karma.

It's the idea that "my Father and I are one," that everyone in the universe is a projection of the one. So, in terms of enlightened or Christ consciousness, to harm (sin against) another person is to harm myself. That's what Sri Vasudeva teaches and he says that that is why it hurts to harm another person.

Whatever I energize produces a response in my universe to fulfill my desires or prayers. The universe brings back to me tenfold what I put out to it. So this is the "Father" echoing back to me my "forgiving" or "unforgiving".

I doubt very much whether this is how priests talk about it, but this is my interpretation. Karma is the only true judge, and no one, not even Christ, escapes karma. But that's another thread...........

p.s. Sorry to appear like I'm dominating this thread - these ideas excite me. Forgiveness is a great virtue but hard to put into practice in fullness....please everyone share your ideas.

[Triner]

Originally Posted by theophilus

Where does the Bible validate any of these things? I have studied the Bible a lot and I can't find anything in it to justify them.

The things you mentioned all occurred at a time when the Church had been corrupted by false teaching and was no longer following the Bible. In fact, the Bible wasn't even available in many languages, so that only people who knew Latin could read it. One of the results of the Protestant reformation was that the Bible was translated into languages people could understand and this widespread knowledge of the Bible's actual teaching eventually led to the ending of the evils you mentioned.

You're missing the point. It WAS used to validate these things. That's what happens when you do not use your own conscience to determine what's right and what's wrong. When you do not use your own conscience, you make yourself vulnerable to others' screwed up interpretations of what's right and wrong. See Jim Jones in Jonestown, David Koresh, Harold Camping for example. They all used the Bible to validate what they did.

It's good that YOU don't think it validates those events. But do you think everyone should just stop using their conscience and rely on your interpretation of the Bible? I don't. Nor do I think they should use mine, or anyone's. Each person has to rely own their own.

[theophilus]

Originally Posted by Triner

You're missing the point. It WAS used to validate these things. That's what happens when you do not use your own conscience to determine what's right and what's wrong. When you do not use your own conscience, you make yourself vulnerable to others' screwed up interpretations of what's right and wrong. See Jim Jones in Jonestown, David Koresh, Harold Camping for example. They all used the Bible to validate what they did.

They might have quoted parts of the Bible which seemed to justify their actions but they interpreted the Bible to fit their beliefs rather than going first to the Bible to find out what they should believe. Harold Camping completely ignored the statement by Jesus that no one would know the day or hour of his return because it conflicted with his belefs.

It's good that YOU don't think it validates those events. But do you think everyone should just stop using their conscience and rely on your interpretation of the Bible? I don't. Nor do I think they should use mine, or anyone's. Each person has to rely own their own.

But that is exactly what Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Harold Camping did. They relied on their own interpretation of the Bible rather than trying to understand what the Bible really says.

[Triner]

Originally Posted by theophilus

They might have quoted parts of the Bible which seemed to justify their actions but they interpreted the Bible to fit their beliefs rather than going first to the Bible to find out what they should believe. Harold Camping completely ignored the statement by Jesus that no one would know the day or hour of his return because it conflicted with his belefs.

But that is exactly what Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Harold Camping did. They relied on their own interpretation of the Bible rather than trying to understand what the Bible really says.

Exactly. And their followers turned off their consciences and let those guys intrepret the Bible for them. If the followers had listened to their conscience, they would've realized that those guys were wrong. Instead, they listened to what you said here:

Originally Posted by theophilus

Our consciences tell us that we should do what is right but we need the Bible to tell us which actions are right and which are wrong. If we have been misinformed as to right and wrong our consciences can be deceived into promoting wrong instead of right.

and let someone else do it for them. I think you absolutely must use your own conscience to interpret the Bible, or any other religious tome. Without using your own conscience, we turn into simple sheeply followers.