Oneness

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

We can't have love and joy and feel the life flow really if everybody holds same opinion . Life-flow has tremendous capacity to hold and nurture multiple views and perceptions. These are mere small differences.

However, I agree that there's Love and Joy (potentially at least) experienced and expressed in the process of Life Flow in any and every case regardless of which 'opinion' one proceeds on the basis of.

But 'small' (differences) is a subjective assessment, HS. In my view, there are hugely different consequences (in terms of real experience and expression) which stem from the 'way' in which one 'sees' the thangs we are sharing 'opinions' about.

Reprising what was addressed by the Heraclites quote, 'I' am not what 'I' was and 'my' experience of and engagement with Life is not 'the same' as it was yesterday. Endless possibilities, including one's I haven't even begun to conceive of as yet, are therefore 'open' to 'me'.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by davidsun

But 'small' (differences) is a subjective assessment, HS. In my view, there are hugely different consequences (in terms of real experience and expression) which stem from the 'way' in which one 'sees' the thangs we are sharing 'opinions' about.

Reprising what was addressed by the Heraclites quote, 'I' am not what 'I' was and 'my' experience of and engagement with Life is not 'the same' as it was yesterday. Endless possibilities, including one's I haven't even begun to conceive of as yet, are therefore 'open' to 'me'.

I am very clear about the explicit /implicit consequences either side (in terms of experience and expression ) . Normally spiritualist go to any length to accommodate life and in that spirit I too don't have any problems in that regards.

But spiritualist have to have one serious commitment to reality also. That's where you see Jesus/Socrates laying their lives in favour of reality/truth and galileo /Copernicus accepting & suffering persecution for holding onto truth.
Fortunately no consequences can be harsher than these . Life and God has been very kind to us having to understand /appreciate reality from diverse perspectives in peaceful and harmonious manner. We are very grateful for that in life and we don't have any rant's / complaints against anybody.

Heraclites quote and experience is very much part of our experience also . And there is no difference of opinion .

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

I am very clear about the explicit /implicit consequences either side (in terms of experience and expression ) . Normally spiritualist go to any length to accommodate life and in that spirit I too don't have any problems in that regards.

But spiritualist have to have one serious commitment to reality also. That's where you see Jesus/Socrates laying their lives in favour of reality/truth and galileo /Copernicus accepting & suffering persecution for holding onto truth.
Fortunately no consequences can be harsher than these . Life and God has been very kind to us having to understand /appreciate reality from diverse perspectives in peaceful and harmonious manner. We are very grateful for that in life and we don't have any rant's / complaints against anybody.

Heraclites quote and experience is very much part of our experience also . And there is no difference of opinion .

Am glad to hear you concur with Heraclites' statement. As far as you saying "Fortunately no consequences can be harsher than these . Life and God has been very kind to us having to understand/appreciate reality from diverse perspectives" is concerned, I must strongly disagree. Jesus and Socrates losing their (physical) lives is small potatoes (in my view) compared to the 'extinction event' that is in process wherein our planetary ecosystem is being grossly compromised and what is coming will make what people had to deal with in the two 'World' Wars and The 'Great' Depression of the last Century look like "child's play".

Yes, we (here now) are enjoying (relatively) easy/pleasurable lives, BUT that doesn't result in my feeling that "'God' has been 'kind' to us." We (not some parent-like 'God') are responsible for what we bring to us. Like Churchill in relation to those politicians who were inclined to 'negotiate' with Hitler for the sake of 'Peace', I have plenty of 'complaints' (meaning 'criticisms') in relation to what nowadays passes for 'acceptable' levels of spiritual 'awareness' and 'aspiration'.

Hence my choice to adopt and maintain an 'uncompromising' stance in regards the subject(s) under discussion.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Hence my choice to adopt and maintain an 'uncompromising' stance in regards the subject(s) under discussion.

P.S. To Hitesh: I feel great 'comradeship' in relation to the passion and intensity of your spiritual aspiration and commitment. It is only the degree of your (general) tolerance/acceptance which I am making a verbal 'point' of refusing to join you in.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Am glad to hear you concur with Heraclites' statement. As far as you saying "Fortunately no consequences can be harsher than these . Life and God has been very kind to us having to understand/appreciate reality from diverse perspectives" is concerned, I must strongly disagree. Jesus and Socrates losing their (physical) lives is small potatoes (in my view) compared to the 'extinction event' that is in process wherein our planetary ecosystem is being grossly compromised and what is coming will make what people had to deal with in the two 'World' Wars and The 'Great' Depression of the last Century look like "child's play".

Collective failures like these are cumulative ones and does not correct as per our wish . It takes decades and generation of effort to move even an inch. It does not mean we neglect our duties and we stay negligent and wayward . No definitely we need to work with more intelligence , faith and compassion .
Leading by example is the only way spirituality works . I understand that can be painfully slow especially in the environment we live in .

Further people activated by fear can act as long as fear is in sight . Instead people activated with love towards God and their gratitude towards God are far more motivating and successful to resolving crisis be it personal or collective .

Originally Posted by davidsun

Yes, we (here now) are enjoying (relatively) easy/pleasurable lives, BUT that doesn't result in my feeling that "'God' has been 'kind' to us." We (not some parent-like 'God') are responsible for what we bring to us. Like Churchill in relation to those politicians who were inclined to 'negotiate' with Hitler for the sake of 'Peace', I have plenty of 'complaints' (meaning 'criticisms') in relation to what nowadays passes for 'acceptable' levels of spiritual 'awareness' and 'aspiration'.

Hence my choice to adopt and maintain an 'uncompromising' stance in regards the subject(s) under discussion.

Every time is not the matter of taking a stand . Many a times it is simply compassion , love , empathy which takes priority over it. If it's relate to rules , facts and reality , we do take uncompromising stand (in fact I take it far earlier rather than dragging it uselessly wasting everybody's time.)

Re tolerance - As I understand I am more tolerant and compromising on this forum . This in fact is a cause for celebrations . Spiritual people are often accused of bigots , fundamentalist , absolutists , fanatic etc . I think being tolerant allows compassion among us . And that is more important then mere artificial / imposed /lip-service agreement.

[davidsun]

I resonate(d) with your comments, Hitesh. Just didn't have anything else I wanted to add. Till now that is:

This says what what I have been thinking about pertaining to Oneness and the 'time-space' of Duality 'within' IT, and says it better than much more succintly than I could:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...&postcount=115

I recommend that whole thread to anyone interested in a comprehensive metaphysical 'view'.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by davidsun

I resonate(d) with your comments, Hitesh. Just didn't have anything else I wanted to add. Till now that is:

This says what what I have been thinking about pertaining to Oneness and the 'time-space' of Duality 'within' IT, and says it better than much more succintly than I could:

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...&postcount=115

I recommend that whole thread to anyone interested in a comprehensive metaphysical 'view'.

Thanks DS for expressing your resonance. I saw the post and it talks of Shiva/Shakti responsible for manifestation .

However I would like to see the entire thread later on . Non-duality is a description of reality from many angles in many situations which I have illustrated in a post essence of non-duality . As u can see in the illustrations literally and psychologically non-duality include duality when viewed from different angle in different situations .

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Thanks DS for expressing your resonance. I saw the post and it talks of Shiva/Shakti responsible for manifestation .

However I would like to see the entire thread later on . Non-duality is a description of reality from many angles in many situations which I have illustrated in a post essence of non-duality . As u can see in the illustrations literally and psychologically non-duality include duality when viewed from different angle in different situations .

I relate to your non-duality/duality experience breakdown as it applies to various psychophysical body 'states'.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Let me attempt to augment understanding of the idea.

Taking current 'understandings' of physical 'energy' as an analogy:

The Universe is the expression of one 'source', i.e, 'energy', which energy may take many 'forms' (matter) and inter'act' in many 'ways' (gravitationally, electrically, magnetically, weak-nuclear-force-ly, and strong-nuc;ear;force-ly.

In this analogical model, every 'nodule' and 'amalgam of nodules' (of energy) is conscious in its own right, in its own way.

All nodules and exchanges of energy between them are an integral part of one gargantuan ever-ongoing Flow-process.

Hence the idea of 'oneness' applies both to the thang, i.e. the energy, that Flows and to the process, i.e. to the Flow as well.

Though 'energy' can 'observe' (how else could in interact with 'other' 'aspects' of energy?), energy itself cannot be 'observed' directly - only its 'forms' and 'actions' can be 'seen'. Its omni-presence as the formative/active 'agent' can only be inferred.

The idea that our 'source' (i.e. conscious 'energy') is 'unchanging' and 'immutable' (as stated in "It is Eternal, All-pervading, Unchanging, Immovable and Most Ancient. It is named the Unmanifest, the Unthinkable, the Immutable. Wherefore, knowing the Spirit as such, ..." The Bhagavad Gita, Ch.2) is questionable, Why? Because we know that physical energy is always 'changing' its 'forms' and 'ways' of interaction. Maybe, those notions (expressed in the Gita and elsewhere) derive from 'wishful thinking', from people wanting to think of and believe in something being basically permanent as a result of being overwhelmed by the flux they 'see' often overriding the course of their and others' lives. That's a hypothesis (that the Gita proclaims some 'false' ideas) worth considering at least. Western 'religious' believers believed in the immutablity of the 'heavens' for a long time - 'religiously' resisting/rejection the notion that earth itself could be moving and that humans could be product of 'evolution' for a very long time!

We are always 'aware' - but that fact doesn't mean that that which is 'aware' is unchanging, IOW.

I will say people misunderstand the Gita before I will say the Gita has false ideas. Every living thing is born with the same exact conscious energy, but people's ego/I/thinker is what changes or manipulates the conscious energy that is inside them, thus they change their perception of reality. This is how and why the physical existence and the spiritual (energetic) existence are one.

A good example of people changing their reality is when people start with a conclusion or conclusions about the physical and/or spiritual and then manipulate their observations to fit their conclusion(s) and they will call the observations that they manipulated proof, experience yada yada yada.

Conclusions puts an end to a persons learning about physical existence and energetic spiritual existence. Absolute reality exists as both physical existence (reality) and energetic spiritual existence (reality). This is the true meaning of unity, oneness, non-duality, wholeness etc etc.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I will say people misunderstand the Gita before I will say the Gita has false ideas. Every living thing is born with the same exact conscious energy, but people's ego/I/thinker is what changes or manipulates the conscious energy that is inside them, thus they change their perception of reality. This is how and why the physical existence and the spiritual (energetic) existence are one.

A good example of people changing their reality is when people start with a conclusion or conclusions about the physical and/or spiritual and then manipulate their observations to fit their conclusion(s) and they will call the observations that they manipulated proof, experience yada yada yada.

Conclusions puts an end to a persons learning about physical existence and energetic spiritual existence. Absolute reality exists as both physical existence (reality) and energetic spiritual existence (reality). This is the true meaning of unity, oneness, non-duality, wholeness etc etc.

I am saying the same thing applies to the ideas in Gita and in the heads of those who believe it conveys Absolute Truth, as it has done in the case of many in relation to the Bible and every other 'compendium' of 'knowledge'. The truth about Reality is an ever-unfolding vision-journey - but most people get 'stuck' in past realization, (relatively) very few travel beyond what others and now they have already come to believe.

Not that everything is the Bible or the Gita is a Life-distorting and derailing vision. Jesus attempted to re-vise ad partially succeeded in getting others to re-vision 'God'. My treatise is aimed at furthering said 'mission'. Please understand, my criticism of what's conveyed by the Gita (which I think is a 'great' 'vision') is aimed as specific ideas (not all of the ideas) in it.

Your notion, that "Every living thing is born with the same exact conscious energy, ..." is where you are 'stuck', IMO. And that is is just a subpart of "Absolute reality exists as both physical existence (reality) and energetic spiritual existence (reality). This is the true meaning of unity, oneness, non-duality, wholeness etc etc."

That is not the 'true' meaning of oneness, non-duality, wholeness etc etc., IMO. My assertion is that we are all creators of the Reality of The FLOW of LIFE which makes Reality as subjective as any artistic work (think sculpture or painting). Nothing is 'Absolutely' fixed in advance let alone in the present, Bro, albeit the weight of 'past' realizations is momentous! We come in to incarnation as soul-configurations, which configurations are the result of what has lived and evolved 'before', i.e. 'up to' that 'point'.

Again, I reiterate Herclaitus' wisdom saying, hoping it will have some 'effect' “No man ever steps into the same river twice, for it’s not the same river and he’s not the same man!”