All is change

[eputkonen]

All is change...a flux and in-motion. Not accepting or resisting change is a primary cause of suffering and discontentment. I've found change has 5 facets that must also be accepted:

1) All is impermanent (can't hold onto anything)
2) All is uncertain (not knowing, no control)
3) All is interdependent (forms change, also all is relative)
4) All is timeless (not of past memory/future imagination)
5) All is impersonal (it's not about you)

Sometimes people can say they realize all is change...and yet take it personally...or overlook that change means not-knowing and uncertainty. I thought it was a good idea to try to figure out the various aspects or facets of change. Are there any aspects of change I might of missed?

[Ground]

Originally Posted by eputkonen

All is change...a flux and in-motion. Not accepting or resisting change is a primary cause of suffering and discontentment. I've found change has 5 facets that must also be accepted:

1) All is impermanent (can't hold onto anything)
2) All is uncertain (not knowing, no control)
3) All is interdependent (forms change, also all is relative)
4) All is timeless (not of past memory/future imagination)
5) All is impersonal (it's not about you)

Sometimes people can say they realize all is change...and yet take it personally...or overlook that change means not-knowing and uncertainty. I thought it was a good idea to try to figure out the various aspects or facets of change. Are there any aspects of change I might of missed?

Except item 2 I agree. Why except item 2? Because one can gain certainty about impermanence. So at least impermanence is certain and right knowledge . But of course impermanence is beyond one's control. So I agree even to item 2 to a certain degree.
Change and impermanence have two aspects: a coarse one and a subtle one. The coarse one is that phenomena come into being, remain for some time and then cease to exist. And the subtle one is that phenomena are momentary, i.e. they do not stay the same from one moment to another moment.
What phenomena I am talking about? I am talking about myself and everything that is not myself. I am talking about self and other.

[sky]

There is one thing that will never change ' All is change '

[Ground]

Originally Posted by sky123

There is one thing that will never change ' All is change '

As to the expression ' All is change ':
If ' All is change ' never changes then this forum and the posting which has ' All is change ' has to exist forever. But this world will end and so will this forum and the existence of ' All is change '. But if the existennce of ' All is change ' ceases then this is change from existence to non-existence of ' All is change '.

As to the object of knowledge ' All is change ':
The thought ' All is change ' arises and later ceases so even the object of knowledge ' All is change ' undergoes change.

So the question actually is: are there existents that are permanent?
Now permanence has two aspects: a coarse one and a subtle one. The coarse one is that permanent phenomena never came into being and never will cease to exist. And the subtle one is that permanent phenomena are not momentary, i.e. they do not change from one moment to another moment. E.g. uncomposed space.
Considering this there may be permanent phenomena having the second aspect only: they do come into being and will cease to exist but do not change from one moment to another moment while existing. E.g. concepts as such.
And other permanent phenomena will never cease to exist after having come into being and do not change from one moment to another moment after having come into being. An example here is the buddhist 'nirvana'.

[Samana]

From the Dhammapada of the Buddha:


277. "All conditioned things are impermanent" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

278. "All conditioned things are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

279. "All things are not-self" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...p.20.budd.html


_/\_

[sky]

Originally Posted by Ground

As to the expression ' All is change ':
If ' All is change ' never changes then this forum and the posting which has ' All is change ' has to exist forever. But this world will end and so will this forum and the existence of ' All is change '. But if the existennce of ' All is change ' ceases then this is change from existence to non-existence of ' All is change '.

As to the object of knowledge ' All is change '
The thought ' All is change ' arises and later ceases so even the object of knowledge ' All is change ' undergoes change.

So the question actually is: are there existents that are permanent?
Now permanence has two aspects: a coarse one and a subtle one. The coarse one is that permanent phenomena never came into being and never will cease to exist. And the subtle one is that permanent phenomena are not momentary, i.e. they do not change from one moment to another moment. E.g. uncomposed space.
Considering this there may be permanent phenomena having the second aspect only: they do come into being and will cease to exist but do not change from one moment to another moment while existing. E.g. concepts as such.
And other permanent phenomena will never cease to exist after having come into being and do not change from one moment to another moment after having come into being. An example here is the buddhist 'nirvana'.

Nirvana..... Buddha reached Nirvana when he was around 35 years old and was still subject to change. illness, pain and later death.

You have to look at different Schools of Buddhist to see the differences as some think of Enlightenment and Nirvana to be the same, others keep them separate. Parinirvana is when there is no change, not Nirvana in my understanding but who knows,I haven't tasted them yet

[Ground]

Originally Posted by sky123

Nirvana..... Buddha reached Nirvana when he was around 35 years old and was still subject to change. illness, pain and later death.

OMG

I wrote 'buddhist nirvana' not 'the buddha'

[sky]

Originally Posted by Ground

OMG

I wrote 'buddhist nirvana' not 'the buddha'

OMG yes I know....
Everything is subject to change, all is impermanent, except Parinirvana...*so they say.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by sky123

OMG yes I know....
Everything is subject to change, all is impermanent, except Parinirvana...*so they say.

Well, my friend, you don't get it right ...

What is nirvana? Nirvana is cessation. What ceases acc. to buddhism? Stress ceases.

So if nirvana is cessation then it spontaneously comes into being and then is permanent since when stress has ceased its cessation does not change from moment to moment.
What you call 'parinirvana' is nirvana without remainder. What remainder? The aggregates.

When a living being has attained nirvana there is cessation however since it is still living there are still the aggregates. Of course the aggregates are subject to change but cessation of stress does not change.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Ground

Well, my friend, you don't get it right ...

What is nirvana? Nirvana is cessation. What ceases acc. to buddhism? Stress ceases.

So if nirvana is cessation then it spontaneously comes into being and then is permanent since when stress has ceased its cessation does not change from moment to moment.
What you call 'parinirvana' is nirvana without remainder. What iremainder? The aggregates.

When a living being has attained nirvana there is cessation however since it is still living there are still the aggregates. Of course the aggregates are subject to change but cessation of stress does not change.

Seeing as Buddhist Schools cannot agree on what Nirvana is then you shouldn't presume I don't have it right, that is just your opinion.
Chinese Buddhist say there are four types of Nirvana, others say three, others two so who is right or wrong. Unless you have reached Nirvana you will never know. We can get an idea from Sutras but then different schools interpret Sutras to their understanding so we find mixed opinions.