Lack of scientific evidence for spiritual

fall-sky · #1 29-12-2013, 04:04 PM

I'm no expert on science or spirituality, but it seems like whenever spiritual or paranormal phenomena are tested scientifically they fail the test. For something to be useful it must be somewhat predictable right? For example, if there is no evidence that prayers are answered more often than random why bother? Of course praying might give some comfort, relieve stress, etc, but it appears to be useless for getting answers. The same argument applies to other types of spiritual beliefs.

So it seems to me that spiritual practices can only be justified by their natural effects on the practitioner (relaxation or whatever). Of course some of these practices might work better if the person believes in the results that science has so far failed to reveal. But in general it is better to be atheistic. If spirits exist, then they are so fickle and useless that we should ignore them.

I'm not trying to be trollish by asking this question. A few years ago I was very certain that spiritual phenomena were real, because it seemed like I was experiencing them. But gradually I've decided my experiences must have been psychological (psychosis or something similar to that).

Any thoughts?

Simon_Templar · #2 29-12-2013, 04:43 PM

Would God allow one to sample his DNA? Could we scientifically demand Manna from the Heavens? If God, and thats what these experiences are tolerated by, is real why can't we DEMAND real examples? Personally, even if you're a cynic, I don't believe its ethical to prove such things.

WhiteWarrior · #3 29-12-2013, 04:50 PM

Two hundred years ago you might have been asked if your science could prove that light was real, or if it was possible to send sound signals through air without hearing them, or if a piece of wood could be cut up into parts so small that even a microscope could not see them. And your answer would be that science clearly said no to all of this.

Two hundred years from now, what do you think today's scientific truths are worth? The world moves forward, not to the cry of 'This is impossible so don't bother trying', but to the whispered 'But what if we keep on trying in new ways anyway." Ask any inventor throughout the entire history of mankind, if he or she got much in the way of support until whatever he created started to make money.

fall-sky · #4 29-12-2013, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon_Templar

Would God allow one to sample his DNA? Could we scientifically demand Manna from the Heavens? If God, and thats what these experiences are tolerated by, is real why can't we DEMAND real examples? Personally, even if you're a cynic, I don't believe its ethical to prove such things.

I may be misunderstanding your position. I think you are saying it's not ethical to ask God to respond to our requests in a statistically measurable way. In other words, God should ignore humans or only respond in very rare circumstances. (Sorry if that is not your position.)

I don't disagree with that position. But IMO God or any other spiritual beings make themselves unimportant to humans by behaving that way. Some people might benefit in practical ways from belieiving in these spiritual phenomena. For example, many people get peace or morality from their spiritual beliefs. But other people might be harmed or harm others by believing in these things. Persecution of homosexuals is an example that comes to mind from the recent pardon of Turing.

In my case, I feel much better focusing on the practices of spirituality and being agnostic.

fall-sky · #5 29-12-2013, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteWarrior

Two hundred years ago you might have been asked if your science could prove that light was real, or if it was possible to send sound signals through air without hearing them, or if a piece of wood could be cut up into parts so small that even a microscope could not see them. And your answer would be that science clearly said no to all of this.

Two hundred years from now, what do you think today's scientific truths are worth? The world moves forward, not to the cry of 'This is impossible so don't bother trying', but to the whispered 'But what if we keep on trying in new ways anyway." Ask any inventor throughout the entire history of mankind, if he or she got much in the way of support until whatever he created started to make money.

I think you are saying that some day science might be able to measure spirituality. And maybe you're also arguing that intuition can motivate scientists to discover unexpected phenomena. (Sorry if I've got that wrong.)

So what you say is true. But usually new scientific theories come from evolutionary extension of existing theories. Then once in a while the experimental results are so strange that a revolutionary new theory is developed. Assuming there are spiritual beings that behave so flippantly that their behavior seems to be random coincidence, why not simply ignore it all? Maybe someday scientists will understand more, but in the meantime why make-up something to believe?

In my case, I try to focus on humility. I will never understand anything and nothing I do matters very much. If God or gods exist then I think they would prefer us to recognize our own ignorance and limitations.

Rawnrr · #6 29-12-2013, 08:24 PM

Once evidence is found, it is no longer called spiritual, it then gets assimilated into science.
Science does find and explain more and more of what used to be spiritual. It is not going to prove the spiritual, it will transform it into science.

Simon_Templar · #7 29-12-2013, 08:29 PM

yes entirely ... the greatest mystery to faith in god is that it is unsubstantiated by emperical fact.If you're christian focused even though you don't exactly believe, or any monotheism you'll find that its faith in Jesus, or having to read Qu'ran or Jewish scripture. To be honest, and I recommend it, go to Satan and develop consciously ... Satan's so crazy He'll likely help you as much as you require.

fall-sky · #8 29-12-2013, 08:32 PM

Anyway, it seems like I'm starting to argue against religious beliefs. Sorry. I'll take a break from posting, because that's a waste of time for everybody. :)

#9 29-12-2013, 08:38 PM

I really like the book, "What the Bleep do We Know?" ...
It explains all I need to know ...

wstein · #10 30-12-2013, 04:49 AM

The entirety of science once had no evidence. Slowly things were 'proven' and accepted as science fact. Its taken hundreds of years to get what we got now. A little patience is required. As new methods and tools are developed, more phenomena will come into evidence. For the most part, spiritual things have not been vetted via the scientific method. However, consciousness hasn't been either. Lack of (current) evidence does not not mean its not real nor that it will never be scientifically proven. Some of it will also be 'proven' wrong from a scientific point of view. That's the process.