Labels?

Originally Posted by freebird

No offense intended for the classifications. Are some of those spirits more evolved than the others, why are they having such different paths in terms of faith? Or is the free will in action? Why would they choose to be sceptic or fanatic religious?
Does this have to do with the spirit's development or are these just labels?

Labels are a reminder that no matter how "Spiritual" we'd like to think we are, the egoic mind is still very much alive, kicking and having its effect on our Spirituality. Labels have nothing to do with Spirituality and as far as I'm aware there is no belief system that says "Thou shalt label." However, they have everything to do with the egoic mind because they assist the mind in coming to an understanding - it's easier to understand and deal with the box than it is the individual. Or even ourselves as individuals when we label ourselves as "Spiritual.".

Labels are definitions and definitions create our reality. If you label yourself as "Spiritual" your reality is created in alignment with your definition of what being a "Spiritual" person is or is not. Spiritual people do read Tolle, Spiritual people don't listen to rock music. You don't meditate every ten minutes therefore you're not Spiritual so you're not in the same box as I am. You are Spiritual therefore I have these expectations of you.

The word "Spiritual" is of the egoic construct as is "evolved" but the problem is that the understanding of how they are of the egoic construct is Jungian psychology and therefore not valid because it is not labelled as "Spiritual". The conditioning goes deeper than most people expect, but then labelling yourself as "Spiritual" isn't conditioning - which is conditioning.

[hallow]

Originally Posted by freebird

With regards to Santa Claus and unicorns. I guess that there must be an objective reality out there as truth, and this happens for all beliefs. Santa Claus can't exist for someone and exist for someone else, unless this happens as imagination. It's like saying a person happens to be in two different places at the same time as part of the same objective reality or universe

If a child believes in Santa Claus, if that belief helps helps that child to be a better person and it gives that child hope in the future. Is there anything wrong in believing? There's a lot of things I don't believe that others do, and that's ok. There's a lot I believe that others don't that's ok too. It's a huge world out there.

Originally Posted by freebird

With regards to Santa Claus and unicorns. I guess that there must be an objective reality out there as truth, and this happens for all beliefs. Santa Claus can't exist for someone and exist for someone else, unless this happens as imagination. It's like saying a person happens to be in two different places at the same time as part of the same objective reality or universe

"Objective" reality is a label, as is anything that is used as a prefix for reality and truth. It's a construct of the egoic mind. Santa Claus exists in the reality of the believer and to the child he's the personification of what Christmas is all about - the 'magic', the wonder..... When there is no Santa Claus there is no wonder and no magic, there is no mystery as to how he gets into a home with no chimney and all the rest of the myths.

True knowledge of believing is believing and matter is emergent of consciousness. And when we can't believe in Santa Clause and unicorns we are no longer creators of our own realities, we are simply victims of someone else's labels and conditioning. What if I say that your "objective reality" is in reality a box for your head and not a reality at all?

What is your definition of "objective" reality? Now do you understand about how definitions create your reality?

The truth is that if someone believes that Santa Clause and unicorns exists then not only do they exist in the reality of the believer they also exist in what you label as "objective reality". As Bashar said - "If you are conscious of it, it exists. How can anything that does not exist enter your reality?" Santa Claus and unicorns are avatars of the collective subconsciousness and may not have form, but they certainly have reality from a consciousness perspective. As to them being in two different places at the same time, did you know your noggin was quantum-capabale? So the truth is, scientifically they can be.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by freebird

With regards to Santa Claus and unicorns. I guess that there must be an objective reality out there as truth, and this happens for all beliefs. Santa Claus can't exist for someone and exist for someone else, unless this happens as imagination. It's like saying a person happens to be in two different places at the same time as part of the same objective reality or universe

I used the Santa Claus analogy as a metaphor, and Hallow understood it.

Santa Claus exists..I did not say that he traveled through the sky on a flying reindeer chariot, nor did I say that he climbed down chimneys delivering presents.

In fact, I see Santa Claus every Christmas at my local shopping mall...granted, he is a different Santa Claus each time and granted Santa Claus would be thinking "Jeez, I can't wait until this gig is over so I can get paid and go home to Mrs. Claus.." but somehow, having a "Christmas Leprechaun" instead, doesn't quite cut it, does it?

It is like those who believe in UFOs vs those who do not.

So the UFO believer will point to the sky and go "see all those strange lights in the sky moving around? what are THEY then?" and the one who does not believe will say "oh, they are all just pigeons with torches strapped to their backs".

For the one who believes the Earth is flat, for them, the Earth IS flat! 99% will disagree...will that make any difference? of course not!

In the "old days" we would institutionalise people for having "weird beliefs" that simply were not true according to the rest of us...they would be called "delusional" but now, with the freedom of belief and freedom of religious expression, anybody's belief is just as valid as anybody else's out there and there are simply not enough mental hospitals to lock up everybody who is 'delusional'.

Yes, truth is entirely subjective.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

"Objective" reality is a label, as is anything that is used as a prefix for reality and truth. It's a construct of the egoic mind. Santa Claus exists in the reality of the believer and to the child he's the personification of what Christmas is all about - the 'magic', the wonder..... When there is no Santa Claus there is no wonder and no magic, there is no mystery as to how he gets into a home with no chimney and all the rest of the myths.

True knowledge of believing is believing and matter is emergent of consciousness. And when we can't believe in Santa Clause and unicorns we are no longer creators of our own realities, we are simply victims of someone else's labels and conditioning. What if I say that your "objective reality" is in reality a box for your head and not a reality at all?

What is your definition of "objective" reality? Now do you understand about how definitions create your reality?

The truth is that if someone believes that Santa Clause and unicorns exists then not only do they exist in the reality of the believer they also exist in what you label as "objective reality". As Bashar said - "If you are conscious of it, it exists. How can anything that does not exist enter your reality?" Santa Claus and unicorns are avatars of the collective subconsciousness and may not have form, but they certainly have reality from a consciousness perspective. As to them being in two different places at the same time, did you know your noggin was quantum-capabale? So the truth is, scientifically they can be.

Beautiful!

You have fully captured the whole point and purpose of this exercise and apart from any differences and disagreements we may have had, we can still resonate on so many levels.

[hallow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

"Objective" reality is a label, as is anything that is used as a prefix for reality and truth. It's a construct of the egoic mind. Santa Claus exists in the reality of the believer and to the child he's the personification of what Christmas is all about - the 'magic', the wonder..... When there is no Santa Claus there is no wonder and no magic, there is no mystery as to how he gets into a home with no chimney and all the rest of the myths.

True knowledge of believing is believing and matter is emergent of consciousness. And when we can't believe in Santa Clause and unicorns we are no longer creators of our own realities, we are simply victims of someone else's labels and conditioning. What if I say that your "objective reality" is in reality a box for your head and not a reality at all?

What is your definition of "objective" reality? Now do you understand about how definitions create your reality?

The truth is that if someone believes that Santa Clause and unicorns exists then not only do they exist in the reality of the believer they also exist in what you label as "objective reality". As Bashar said - "If you are conscious of it, it exists. How can anything that does not exist enter your reality?" Santa Claus and unicorns are avatars of the collective subconsciousness and may not have form, but they certainly have reality from a consciousness perspective. As to them being in two different places at the same time, did you know your noggin was quantum-capabale? So the truth is, scientifically they can be.

That's true, but as a person grows and matures in every stage of life, hopes and dreams change. A healthy minded person will grow out of believing in Santa Claus. I understand as much as anyone the truth/reality can be nothing but hard and ugly but if you find hope somewhere even if it is myth it has done what it was Intended. If you're Jewish you probably don't believe in Santa Claus at all. You'll have a completely different set of beliefs. But it all serves the same reason. You notice most major holidays happen during the dark winter months? Maybe they were created us to help ourselves threw the hardest time of the year. But now I am getting way off topic of labels. But it's easy to see how labels can confuse some because of misinterpreting what is really ment to be.

[Shivani Devi]

When I was younger...about eight or so, I asked my grandma if Santa Claus existed.

In reply, she quoted me an old newspaper article...in my later years, I was fascinated that she even remembered it:

https://www.newseum.org/exhibits/online/yes-virginia/

DEAR EDITOR: I am 8 years old.
Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus.
Papa says, ‘If you see it in THE SUN it’s so.’
Please tell me the truth; is there a Santa Claus?

VIRGINIA O’HANLON.
115 WEST NINETY-FIFTH STREET.

VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that’s no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You may tear apart the baby’s rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, VIRGINIA, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by hallow

That's true, but as a person grows and matures in every stage of life, hopes and dreams change. A healthy minded person will grow out of believing in Santa Claus. I understand as much as anyone the truth/reality can be nothing but hard and ugly but if you find hope somewhere even if it is myth it has done what it was Intended. If you're Jewish you probably don't believe in Santa Claus at all. You'll have a completely different set of beliefs. But it all serves the same reason. You notice most major holidays happen during the dark winter months? Maybe they were created us to help ourselves threw the hardest time of the year. But now I am getting way off topic of labels. But it's easy to see how labels can confuse some because of misinterpreting what is really meant to be.

How about those, like me, who live in Australia? Most of our holidays happen during the bright, summer months.

In fact OUR Santa Claus pretty much looks like this:



As for the Jewish Santa Claus...that would be Santa masquerading as Hanukkah Harry:



What I am trying to illustrate here with all of this, are the imposed limitations we have regarding labels, concepts and beliefs.

To go beyond labels, is to see things how and as they ARE and not how we perceive them to be through our conditioned mind.

[hallow]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

How about those, like me, who live in Australia? Most of our holidays happen in the bright, summer months.

In fact OUR Santa Claus pretty much look like this:



As for the Jewish Santa Claus...that would be Santa masquerading as Hanukkah Harry:



What I am trying to illustrate here with all of this, is the imposed limitations we have regarding labels, concepts and beliefs.

To go beyond labels, is to see things how and as they ARE and not how we perceive them to be through our conditioned mind.

most religious holidays come from Christianity. Christianity begin in the now eroupen countries. Those countries are North of the equator. Your in the south, so your seasons are opposite.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by hallow

most religious holidays come from Christianity. Christianity begin in the now eroupen countries. Those countries are North of the equator. Your in the south, so your seasons are opposite.

Of course they are!

It still doesn't alter the fact that most of our holidays occur in the bright, summer months irrespective of where they originated. Which nullifies your previous argument.

I mean, for the more "traditional" of us, we celebrate "Christmas in July" so that means that Christ must have been born in July instead, right?

However, one needs to live in Australia to experience this for themselves. Can't expect a European to get it. lol

Geez, we even have six white kangaroos pulling Santa's sleigh over here thanks to (a now discredited) Rolf Harris...but Santa never got that message.