The Wisdom Of the 12 Steps of AA

[Shivani Devi]

Of course, people could always say "this does not relate to me personally at ALL" and just leave it there, because for millions, it has worked, but I don't see anybody doing that.

But this is my retrograde Saturn in Pisces in the Third House doing it's Karmic thing again...

*goes back to the Hindu forum where I know what I'm talking about*

Personal history about myself has had me in this enviroment more times then i can count (15+yrs). Even studied the correlation to the 12 steps and how dual diagnosis therapy is broadly accepting it in my region. They're finding almost everyone with a psychological diagnosis is being better treated with this adapted program as most have addictions as well.

I've been the cause of or been involved in a plethora of conversations involving how most of the people i encounter on a daily basis have an addiction of some sort its just not illegal. social media, overeating, overspending, issues with being alone and constantly needing communication or company, need to debate and be right and my favorite need of approval. more or less anything that a person does over and over again for a short term happy can be viewed as an addiction in the right light. I've even seen people get addicted to spirituality and trying to learn the most and be the most high.

I've often imagined what new forms of therapy would be like. I even wanted to spearhead my own theories and write a book or open my own practice (the idea lasted for like an hour) Merging the idea of traditional therapy with power of thought and the 12 steps. I've also had this conversation with a lot of friends and therapist colleagues. everyone seemed very intrigued and agreed how beneficial it would be. just hope i get kick back if someone does it!

I've even took into account the ideas and info put fourth in "What the Bleep!?: Down the Rabbit Hole" that each thought triggers an emotion and those emotions are a result of a release of chemicals in the brain that get absorbed by the body. which they say is addiction on a biological level. they point out how someone who is constantly upset depressed or sad almost craves those same feelings at times. hence putting on the sad or angry breakup music. I've been victim to this myself putting on a sappy movie after a breakup and unconsciously creating that same release of sad emotions. It astounds me how well addiction and thought go hand in hand. then upon changing direction to a spiritual path ive also noticed how similar these two worlds are. and have been going to rooms occasionally because i crave (yes my addiction) people who think along the same lines i do. and surprisingly enough i find more satisfying conversation with addicts then i do with those that are "addiction free"

Someone on here. think it was baile mentioned at one point how he just up and quit smoking one day. didn't feel the need for it. I have gone through this and regret not choosing to quit then. instead i kept going but at the same time i had just given up meat and dairy. then moved onto intimate relations altogether (no fap) very empowering..

in short i don't know how i got to that point and wish i would have written down my process to analyze later. but i remember thinking why am i smoking? and didn't feel the need or want any day after for a good two weeks but almost pushed myself to continue.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Of course, people could always say "this does not relate to me personally at ALL" and just leave it there, because for millions, it has worked, but I don't see anybody doing that.

But this is my retrograde Saturn in Pisces in the Third House doing it's Karmic thing again...

*goes back to the Hindu forum where I know what I'm talking about*

Hi Nec -

Have you thought about the possibility of doing a 12-steps kind of approach to not (presently) being able to develop 'immunity' to feeling unduly insulted/unappreciated etc.?

Whatever - please know that I appreciated, to the point of admiring even, what you undertook to do here and did quite well up, to a point.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Hi Nec -

Have you thought about the possibility of doing a 12-steps kind of approach to not (presently) being able to develop 'immunity' to feeling unduly insulted/unappreciated etc.?

Whatever - please know that I appreciated, to the point of admiring even, what you undertook to do here and did quite well up, to a point.

Thank you, David.

I woke up today thinking to myself that those who react so emotionally and violently to whatever I post, must mean there is some truth in it for them, because if there were not, they would simply laugh, go "what a load of bee ess" and just unsubscribe. I also failed to take into account those who took the time to put up a constructive argument as well, so thank you to all those who did not want to dissect it or pick it all apart and I have read all of the replies. <3

I guess, in all honesty that it's the same people who do this to me in other threads too, so when it comes to the whole 'ignore function' thing, I should also be availing of it more often than I do myself.

The only way I can make myself immune from feeling unduly insulted/unappreciated is to mentally tell them all where they can go in my head, so until such times as that changes...

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Thank you, David.

I woke up today thinking to myself that those who react so emotionally and violently to whatever I post, must mean there is some truth in it for them, because if there were not, they would simply laugh, go "what a load of bee ess" and just unsubscribe. I also failed to take into account those who took the time to put up a constructive argument as well, so thank you to all those who did not want to dissect it or pick it all apart and I have read all of the replies. <3

I guess, in all honesty that it's the same people who do this to me in other threads too, so when it comes to the whole 'ignore function' thing, I should also be availing of it more often than I do myself.

The only way I can make myself immune from feeling unduly insulted/unappreciated is to mentally tell them all where they can go in my head, so until such times as that changes...

I wanted to tell you thank you for posting this. I always respect your view and appreciate your presence on here I've learned a lot from what you have posted. Even when we don't agree I still respect you view and question why i don't agree and learn from it.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Badcopyinc

I wanted to tell you thank you for posting this. I always respect your view and appreciate your presence on here I've learned a lot from what you have posted. Even when we don't agree I still respect you view and question why i don't agree and learn from it.

Maybe I just require a dose of humility, like you just gave me and thank you so much for it.

I understand now! I can only be humble and meek when I am being appreciated!

So, all those times when I am not, I only want to give as good, if not better.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Of course this will not be useful for anybody who doesn't believe in a Power or concept greater than their own ego-self or any kind of 'God of their own understanding' or any universal source or force whatsoever, but some of us do, including myself.

Of course it also won't be useful if they cannot admit their 'bad habit' or whatever difficulty they are self-inflicting is causing problems in their life and they'd like to change, but sheer willpower hasn't worked because they're still relying on the ego-self for that.

Well I'm in good company. Even the co-founder of AA didn't rely on that list, choosing to use LSD instead to address his own issues.

http://www.alternet.org/drugs/founde...cts-stay-clean
In fact, Bill Wilson, the co-founder of the Alcoholics Anonymous program, actually considered promoting LSD as a tool for alcoholics to shake their addiction. Wilson was a close associate with many early adopters of LSD and took numerous trips in controlled, scientific settings while he was involved with the AA program.

Words are just words and ideas are just ideas. Bill felt the need to use the experience of LSD in order to bring substance to the process and not simply rely on concepts alone.

My own spiritual experience started with experiences and are driven by experiences and is not reliant on the dreams that are formed though persistent thought habits. Bill Wilson agrees. He was not happy with the idea that this list should stand alone.

Such lists are a whistle stop on the way toward transformation. If one embraces them as anything more, then the list itself becomes a prison. You are of course free to follow the course you see fit, my response is a reaction to the shallowness of the list itself. And in this I'm in the company with the co-founder of this list. He viscerally didn't didn't like the idea of being stuck in one place either.

[7luminaries]

I don't see a conflict between any of the 12 step items and further development of the self. It seems a conflict IMO only if we approach life as rigid, stark categories or as black-and-white.

Let's assume instead that we keep an open mind to it all, including how own would or might adopt and benefit from the philosophy in his or her own life. To me, the point of the 12-step approach is coincidental with awakening, meaning it drives and then in turn is also is fed by awakening.

What is the approach, in broad strokes? It is becoming aware and acknowledging where one is at, and then taking full ownership of where one is at. The movement forward next involves acceptance of grace and humility, and then allows for full exploration of remorse and contrition. Then the natural step after that is seeking to make amends...to apologise and to reconcile where possible. This is all so basic to spiritual and emotional growth...but yet it is clearly something that is difficult, and many of us benefit from or need the guidance as lamps along our path.

This is applicable to all humanity, really. And the point at which you don't need this sort of guidance is the point at which you've taken complete ownership of your life and you've internalised all these steps. No one has to remind you to care for other equally to self.

The other aspect which is also applicable to all but specifically to those in recovery is building a new life (for many) and accessing the group support AND the transparency and accountability to one's sponsors and to the group, in order to successfully do so. Accountability is equally important to the support. It may be that after months (or years for some), some individuals may only attend weekly or bimonthly or what have ye...but the need for support (a form of love and lovingkindness) is purely human. The 12 step approach makes the sheer fact of interbeing very concrete...you are called to acknowledge and participate in interbeing for mutual sharing, support, and accountability to one another. I think this is actually quite powerful and has universal application.

Likewise, the need for transparency and accountability never goes away, whether one has an illegal/villified addiction or not...it is simply more concrete and real for most recovering addicts (who cannot screw around and understand that their lives literally depend on it) when they have to choose to share with the group. It's not failsafe, but it's harder to lie or make excuses and justifications for your behavior in front of others and especially others whom you know and have come to care about, and that's the whole point. For many, this is a part of the new chapter...learning what ownership and integrity is, learning how to authentically love and care for others equally to the self (the addict's weak point, but also our society's weak point), and how to start building these from nothing, from the ground up.

It is what it is, and there are likely some or many in recovery who feel most comfortable with some lifelong group support aspect. When they are ready to incorporate new activities or forms of support and learning etc which aid them in their new lives...which aid them on their journey...they can choose to add them to the group support, or they can leave off group support whenever they are ready. I personally would never suggest they quit what is working for them -- best to refrain from judgment and let them do as they need. But adding on new healthy lifestyle activities when they are feeling stronger is a simple best-of-both approaches.

There's no need to approach any of this as an either/or thing even for hard-core addicts in recovery. Certainly, there's no conflict for the rest of us between pursuing any general philosophy of ownership, responsibility, transparency, and ethical living with exploring new things and new interests in any aspect of our lives. As long as those things are also healthy and sustainable for the body and soul.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I don't see a conflict between any of the 12 step items and further development of the self. It seems a conflict IMO only if we approach life as rigid, stark categories or as black-and-white.

Let's assume instead that we keep an open mind to it all, including how own would or might adopt and benefit from the philosophy in his or her own life. To me, the point of the 12-step approach is coincidental with awakening, meaning it drives and then in turn is also is fed by awakening.

What is the approach, in broad strokes? It is becoming aware and acknowledging where one is at, and then taking full ownership of where one is at. The movement forward next involves acceptance of grace and humility, and then allows for full exploration of remorse and contrition. Then the natural step after that is seeking to make amends...to apologise and to reconcile where possible. This is all so basic to spiritual and emotional growth...but yet it is clearly something that is difficult, and many of us benefit from or need the guidance as lamps along our path.

This is applicable to all humanity, really. And the point at which you don't need this sort of guidance is the point at which you've taken complete ownership of your life and you've internalised all these steps. No one has to remind you to care for other equally to self.

The other aspect which is also applicable to all but specifically to those in recovery is building a new life (for many) and accessing the group support AND the transparency and accountability to one's sponsors and to the group, in order to successfully do so. Accountability is equally important to the support. It may be that after months (or years for some), some individuals may only attend weekly or bimonthly or what have ye...but the need for support (a form of love and lovingkindness) is purely human. The 12 step approach makes the sheer fact of interbeing very concrete...you are called to acknowledge and participate in interbeing for mutual sharing, support, and accountability to one another. I think this is actually quite powerful and has universal application.

Likewise, the need for transparency and accountability never goes away, whether one has an illegal/villified addiction or not...it is simply more concrete and real for most recovering addicts (who cannot screw around and understand that their lives literally depend on it) when they have to choose to share with the group. It's not failsafe, but it's harder to lie or make excuses and justifications for your behavior in front of others and especially others whom you know and have come to care about, and that's the whole point. For many, this is a part of the new chapter...learning what ownership and integrity is, learning how to authentically love and care for others equally to the self (the addict's weak point, but also our society's weak point), and how to start building these from nothing, from the ground up.

It is what it is, and there are likely some or many in recovery who feel most comfortable with some lifelong group support aspect. When they are ready to incorporate new activities or forms of support and learning etc which aid them in their new lives...which aid them on their journey...they can choose to add them to the group support, or they can leave off group support whenever they are ready. I personally would never suggest they quit what is working for them -- best to refrain from judgment and let them do as they need. But adding on new healthy lifestyle activities when they are feeling stronger is a simple best-of-both approaches.

There's no need to approach any of this as an either/or thing even for hard-core addicts in recovery. Certainly, there's no conflict for the rest of us between pursuing any general philosophy of ownership, responsibility, transparency, and ethical living with exploring new things and new interests in any aspect of our lives. As long as those things are also healthy and sustainable for the body and soul.

Peace & blessings
7L

Thank you. This was what I was trying to convey here, before everything got side-tracked.

To say that nothing should stand as guidelines or pointers would be to disclude/discredit the Bible, the Vedas...anything ever written about anything holy or spiritual whatsoever and it's fine for some to say they are 'over all that' and 'experience teaches them' and that is all well and good for those who exist beyond any form of mental association whatsoever, so that a habit will not be bothersome (if they saw anything as their own doing anyway), but 99% of people are not like that and I just happened to have a 1%'er posting on this thread.

Bottom line is if it is helpful, that's up to the individual who reads it and follows it and no amount of others saying 'that's a load of rubbish' is going to stand in the way of it. It takes determination and steadfastness not to be swayed by the beliefs of others and then those others may call you 'stubborn', 'blind', 'ignorant' or whatever, but that's because they are still trying to promote an agenda which they follow and want everybody else to as well.

This is not like that. I honestly don't care if others find it helpful or useful or not, but what I will not tolerate, is others poisoning the well for those who may want to drink from it, so if that is the intention, I ask you to kindly leave this thread or I shall request that it be closed. Thank you.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

but what I will not tolerate, is others poisoning the well for those who may want to drink from it, so if that is the intention, I ask you to kindly leave this thread or I shall request that it be closed. Thank you.

You may continue at your leisure. I was curious about something and I saw what I needed to see. :)