The Wise Ones

[Armadodecadron]

Originally Posted by Flexi-Girl

I have observed that great challenges often cause people to dig deeper, and make profound discoveries that they might not otherwise have been aware of. I suppose you could say changes could be brought about by gentler means, but how often would we be receptive to it? Massive cultural pressures and beliefs keep us tied to present circumstances.

And I have observed desperation and hunger; spiritual needs that have driven people to absurd forms of denigration and to believe truly absurd things. But they are all crying out for the same thing, together, in different voices and with different words: Freedom, safety, understanding, power, completeness, ascension.

I am utterly convinced there would be an explosive rally behind a demonstrable miracle worker. People would throw down their holy books - no, not all of them, but enough - and do you know why? Because most religions attract people with the promise of miracles. Miracles are at the center of these doctrines. They are the foundation used to build a belief in the otherworldly and a disbelief in the worldly. But none of them presently deliver...

Back to deliverance through the hands of wise ones:
What good reason is there not to give it to the masses, besides it either being an impossible gift, or the well being and deliverance of the masses being undesirable or pointless goals in the eyes of any wise ones?

Of course, we've already touched on those two points. It all comes back to wise ones either lacking the power to give such a gift, or not wishing to because such an end-game isn't their goal. I can't see any in-betweens: even the hypothetical "they must rise through struggle" still returns to a lack of power on behalf of the wise ones: the power to prevent suffering by raising others and sparing them these birth pains.

I will clarify again, for the sake of others who might be entering this debate: If it is within an individual's power to spare another pain associated with a natural healing or growing process without preventing that healing or growth, it is a good act to do so, and a cruel one to refrain from doing so.

Make no mistake about how significant I feel that last bit is. It is because of that specific point that I am absolutely convinced that there are either no wise ones, or that the lack the power to do the kind of good they wish to do, or that they do not have intentions we'd recognize as good at all.

[Flexi-Girl]

Originally Posted by Armadodecadron

And I have observed desperation and hunger; spiritual needs that have driven people to absurd forms of denigration and to believe truly absurd things. But they are all crying out for the same thing, together, in different voices and with different words: Freedom, safety, understanding, power, completeness, ascension.

I am utterly convinced there would be an explosive rally behind a demonstrable miracle worker. People would throw down their holy books - no, not all of them, but enough - and do you know why? Because most religions attract people with the promise of miracles. Miracles are at the center of these doctrines. They are the foundation used to build a belief in the otherworldly and a disbelief in the worldly. But none of them presently deliver...

Back to deliverance through the hands of wise ones:
What good reason is there not to give it to the masses, besides it either being an impossible gift, or the well being and deliverance of the masses being undesirable or pointless goals in the eyes of any wise ones?

Of course, we've already touched on those two points. It all comes back to wise ones either lacking the power to give such a gift, or not wishing to because such an end-game isn't their goal. I can't see any in-betweens: even the hypothetical "they must rise through struggle" still returns to a lack of power on behalf of the wise ones: the power to prevent suffering by raising others and sparing them these birth pains.

I will clarify again, for the sake of others who might be entering this debate: If it is within an individual's power to spare another pain associated with a natural healing or growing process without preventing that healing or growth, it is a good act to do so, and a cruel one to refrain from doing so.

Make no mistake about how significant I feel that last bit is. It is because of that specific point that I am absolutely convinced that there are either no wise ones, or that the lack the power to do the kind of good they wish to do, or that they do not have intentions we'd recognize as good at all.

Maybe it's wise not to fix anything.
To put it another way, would you prefer a life where someone else figured out everything so you would never get to figure out anything on your own, or do you like to make your own choices?

[Aube Borealis]

The wise ones have surpassed the human weaknesses and knew the dangers of those sacred knowledge on how to tap on one's abilities and more so if it falls in the hands of the person with bad intentions.

Originally Posted by Flexi-Girl

Maybe it's wise not to fix anything.
To put it another way, would you prefer a life where someone else figured out everything so you would never get to figure out anything on your own, or do you like to make your own choices?

A guidance will do, what is there to learn when it is all given.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Armadodecadron

Back to deliverance through the hands of wise ones:
What good reason is there not to give it to the masses, besides it either being an impossible gift, or the well being and deliverance of the masses being undesirable or pointless goals in the eyes of any wise ones?

this is the plan after all... just because it hasn't come about as quickly as we desire doesn't void that. Sometimes, things happen in progression and you take one step after another... as we understand roads there is no skipping from the beginning of the road to the end without walking on the tiles between.

Of course, we've already touched on those two points. It all comes back to wise ones either lacking the power to give such a gift, or not wishing to because such an end-game isn't their goal. I can't see any in-betweens: even the hypothetical "they must rise through struggle" still returns to a lack of power on behalf of the wise ones: the power to prevent suffering by raising others and sparing them these birth pains.

I will clarify again, for the sake of others who might be entering this debate: If it is within an individual's power to spare another pain associated with a natural healing or growing process without preventing that healing or growth, it is a good act to do so, and a cruel one to refrain from doing so.

sometimes, you have to cut off the leg to save the body, e.g. from something like gangrene. So do you think it is better to spare the pain of cutting off the leg (in the short term) or is it better to cut off the leg no matter how much it hurts in the short term, so that the body can live on for longer than would otherwise be possible?

Which do you choose? Either was is going to hurt. Which do you choose?

Make no mistake about how significant I feel that last bit is. It is because of that specific point that I am absolutely convinced that there are either no wise ones, or that the lack the power to do the kind of good they wish to do, or that they do not have intentions we'd recognize as good at all.

make no mistake... you have hit the nail on the head. The game being played is NOT with any intent we would recognize as good... In fact everyone would think it very bad as it cuts to the core of our cherished desires. But at the same time those who are able to understand the plan see it is in our own best interests that it be finished as per plan. Even if things happen that you don't like, or people hurt, or time is wasted, or we don't fully understand something we want to understand. In fact the plan takes the fact that we would inherently be opposed to the plan itself and never able to see the truth behind what it MEANS for us, in the very long view, into account. That we would immediately rebel if the idea of what it means in the short term is even suggested.

[Flexi-Girl]

Because ideas are so easily taken out of context the original meaning gets diluted by words.

A pure intention can be fully realized without words and there are many things which cannot be taught but experienced. Perhaps a wise person understands this and no longer needs to be heard.

We are not even scratching the surface of what were capable of. By reaching deep inside to expand our awareness we can catch glimpses of our own powers.

By opening up our minds almost to the point of emptiness can we begin to grasp the higher truths.

Some people who are good at this are children. They have far less resistance because their identity is not as fully formed. On the other hand most children haven't yet developed the ability to focus their minds as sharply as adults can.

To become like the wise ones, we must be simultaneously a child but also an adult. You have to walk the line between belief and disbelief, emotion and no emotion.

Our best athletes, artists,musicians, and scientists are better at this, but even they have not focused at the level of the wise ones. Some would say you are born with it, but then again...

[Nowayout]

I know when my "moods" are good the world shines with me too.

Kids, in the right environment, have a general inclination to happiness and play. I get that on these good days. When I drop the baggage.

Adults have so much more to deal with. Working wisely through "our deals" is what separates the wise from the ones who struggle?

Wisdom is spiritual in the final draw.

[Armadodecadron]

Originally Posted by Flexi-Girl

Maybe it's wise not to fix anything.
To put it another way, would you prefer a life where someone else figured out everything so you would never get to figure out anything on your own, or do you like to make your own choices?

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

Which do you choose? Either was is going to hurt. Which do you choose?

I could not possibly answer these questions within the framework of this conversation. Truthfully, I have been arguing for a hypothetical perspective that isn't even my own, so any answers I might give would require an entirely different conversation as setup for them to even seem relevant, let alone convincing. Don't misconstrue this as a backpedal on the statement that we're either dealing with a lack of power or an indifferent motive - both of those were the product of genuinely held convictions on my part. Just, ironically, not quite for the reasons I've laid out in this thread.

But they are excellent questions.

[Shivani Devi]

I really should be following my teachings from those 'wise ones'. =/

It was said to me, that intentions have a form of latent energy within them, which becomes potent when they are actualised.

When we tell another, or open up these intentions to the universe, that energy thus becomes scattered or dispersed and the potency is either watered down or lost altogether.

There's also the chance that the more we talk about it, the less inclined we are to actually do it when the time comes - or it won't have such a profound effect on us, or on others.

It's also easier to explain or discuss after the fact, because others can see what difference it actually makes, instead of going through brain permutations as to what effect such intentions or actions could have, when there's a chance it won't happen that way.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

I really should be following my teachings from those 'wise ones'. =/

It was said to me, that intentions have a form of latent energy within them, which becomes potent when they are actualised.

When we tell another, or open up these intentions to the universe, that energy thus becomes scattered or dispersed and the potency is either watered down or lost altogether.

There's also the chance that the more we talk about it, the less inclined we are to actually do it when the time comes - or it won't have such a profound effect on us, or on others.

It's also easier to explain or discuss after the fact, because others can see what difference it actually makes, instead of going through brain permutations as to what effect such intentions or actions could have, when there's a chance it won't happen that way.

on the other hand there is no reason you HAVE to live THAT way either. More effective, yes.

But just imagine if the birds took an injunction like that and then decided not to sing so they could be more 'effective' in their doings. We would all lose out!

[Shivani Devi]