Sun Bear, Swift Deer and other controversy

Ciqala, I have to say I really like what you had to say. I'm a little undecided or unsure on a few of the details, but overall I really liked it and you seem like a very wise and conscientious person.

I see a lot of healers who have problems with ego or other things because they have not gone through their training with a group with solid traditions or they just have not disciplined themselves enough, or various other reasons. I think it's very important for a healer or aspiring healer to constantly strive to be as selfless, compassionate, disciplned, and pure as possible. This is a difficult path and I see many who either do not stay on it, or never were on it to begin with(they think the knowledge of healing techniques is all they need). I see healers who have done a lot "clearing" in the beginning years of their training, but later on they become arrogant and think they don't need to watch out for negative aspects in themselves anymore and they stop doing personal, internal purification work.

I very much respect many native traditions and I'm a bit torn with the general idea of teaching these traditions to the masses, and how they are taught, etc. On one hand, I believe that certain parts of this wisdom are not especially "owned" by one tribe or group of people and that this wisdom is here to be accessed by whoever is ready for it, and that it resides in nature and spirit, and has been there since long before any group of people were here and therefore can be shared freely with anyone. On the other hand, I do see the other side of it, in that people can often misuse knowledge or wisdom and there is/was a very good reason for keeping it secret.

It's a troubling subject for me, hence the reason for this topic.

One thing I do not especially agree with, although I'm open that I might be wrong, is the idea that noone should do any healing work until they are "completely" healed themselves. I have seen a number of healers who continually do amazing healing and spiritual work, who are far from being "completely" healed themselves. I'm not even quite sure if I believe there is such a thing as "completely" healed. For instance, a modern herbalist might be incredible intuitive and incredibly knowledgable and be able to help many many people, yet still have many issues or arrogance, impatience, anger, depression, and so on. And although I realize energy can be transferred in certain cases and in certain ways, I think this hypothetical herbalist(or chiropractor, doctor, therapist, qi gong healer, etc.) has done much more good and helped many people to heal, and would not have if they had just avoided helping because they were not completely healed.

I think overall the world is a much much better place because of various ancient wisdom and knowledge that has been shared in recent years than if it were all still kept secret. If everyone with flaws(which is almost everyone) just sat around never trying to help, then noone would ever get any teaching or healing. I'm not a typical Christian, or maybe even a Christian at all, but I do believe Jesus existed and that at least some of his tales are true, and even Jesus had flaws/doubts/etc.

So I can see both sides of it, and I'm undecided on ALL of it, but I think there may be some middle ground. I do very much like your post though.

On a side note, I love your comment about healers with websites. I'm not completely opposed to a healer having a site, especially if it's just for basic information, convenience, contact info, etc. but I do have to say that many times when I see a healer with a website it really turns me off if it is at all about "them" and "how good they are".

Originally Posted by ZeroPointField

Thank you, everyone. Sorry I haven't had a chance to respond. It's been a long week, but I'll get back to you all ASAP.

Are you talking of the author, Sun Bear, who wrote "Medicine Wheel- Earth Astrology" ?

Yes, Summerland. That's the guy I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by ZeroPointField

Yes, Summerland. That's the guy I'm talking about.

I have a couple of his books, but have not read them for many years. The problem that I have with following any one person's teaching is that all of the answers that we need are inside of us. I have had a medicine man do a ceremony for me once and he was successful. However, he made no claims and did not fit much of Cigala's criteria. My friend has knowledge of many things, but yet I have counseled him on a few matters.

Summerland, I definitely agree that in some sense all the answers are inside us. I think it's more the "true us" where these answers are though, and most people do not have the ability to consciously and purposely access their Higher Self, True Self, etc. So a lot of what I read, study, learn from others, is the knowledge and techniques that may allow me to act consciously from that higher part of myself so that I then CAN find all the answers within myself.

I also agree that I do not like to follow only one teacher(or method, philosophy, religion, etc.) and I think that's partly where the inner wisdom comes in - of finding what resonates with you in whatever you happen to be listening to, studying, or learning, and what does not.

It is a difficult thing to point out the erroneous ways of others. However, the level of deception that exists in todays world is overwhelming and confusing. Perhaps it is the duty of those who see the deception to bring it out. If you examine the site of Harly Swift Deer you will see that he has taken bits and pieces of information and pasted it together in a fictitous collage of supposed sacred knowledge offered by the Cherokee. Through research you will find that the Cherokee deny his use of this knowledge and deny that it is part of their tradition. He has mixed hindu, native american and south american knowledge with pop psychology. Is this true teaching? do the elders really give him advice?

He further confuses people by taking it to Europe and perpetuates the myths and misrepresents our true First People's teachings abroad. These are shameful actions.

I apologize for my bluntness but deception is damaging to true spiritual seekers.

[Deusdrum]

Originally Posted by ZeroPointField

I do believe healers, ESPECIALLY healers, should be very humble about their work and should always work to clear themselves of any arrogance, high horses, judgment of others, etc.,

This to me is so very very important of a point. It is a very elusive thing as well, because i may have the appearance of humility, may truly think myself humble even, but the ego or whatever you wish to term it is so subtle and unconscious that it can sneak up on us.

I myself am not a healer, at least not at this point, or do not consider myself as such, so perhaps it is not my place to say what is what, however just from my personal inner struggles i have gone through ebbs and flows and ups and downs that bring me around again to this challenge of getting over myself to be clear enough to feel like i am 'progressing' in any sense.

I can only imagine that with some success would come greater challenges in the form of flattery from others or yourself. There is a side of me which i sometimes refer to as the 'impostor', who looks, smells, feels, sounds like the real thing, but when discerned clearly is missing some heart,(yet may appear to be heartfelt) some intangible thing that does not quite ring true.

I find the quickest way for this to happen to me, or for me to 'do'? this.. is when i start feeling myself too much, basically losing the humility. A recognition and respect of other people as equal in Spirit should be foremost of concern, imo, when focus wanes, and it becomes too self absorbed, this is lost. True empathy is one of the primary hallmarks in my opinion. Not the sappy sentimental kind, but the "I feel a connection" kind. "The best kind of patience is humility," as the saying goes.

I think there is a necessary sort of vigilance in this. However, to keep it on topic, perhaps there is a certain amount of risk involved in trusting any healer, but at the same time intuition & instincts i would put as primary to consider following when deciding upon one.

I have tremendous respect for the shamanic path. I'm honestly not entirely sure why, maybe it is due to my personality and personal preference, but it has always seemed one of the most real of Spiritual paths to me, though i do not claim to know anything of it.

Having said all this, i think some healers, of whatever variety are more suited perhaps to certain people than others; maybe some are "better" also, not on a personal level, meaning just more effective in general. Some are also probably either kidding themselves to some degree or outright frauds. Especially in the shamanic area, i think it is wise to be aware of a person that claims to be such, as there is not to my knowledge any universal certified shamanism degree that can be checked in some database of accredited shamans. I may be wrong in this.

On the other hand, if a person calls themselves a shaman, just because they may not qualify in the minds of others as one, does not mean they may not have something of value to offer.

Some questions maybe to consider; what seems to be their intention, do you feel they are sincere, energetically, what is the vibe you get from them, do you feel their is a compatibility between the two of you.

Also, ask the Universe for a sign, then pay attention for an answer. Just a suggestion that may work.

I have tried going to 2 or 3 different healers in my life, due to lack of follow through on my part, it never went beyond 2 or 3 sessions, so i do not have a lot of experience myself. Also, i do not understand if you are talking about an 'apprenticeship' or are wanting to 'be healed' though i suppose both would be ongoing processes and go hand in hand as well, as someone has mentioned above.

As also has been said, if i feel the intention is pure, then other what may seem to be flaws should not too harshly be judged, as no one is perfect in my opinion, and in the end, if they get the job done, then that speaks above whatever other issues one may have with them. I would be wary in fact, of anyone who comes across as infallible.

1Love ~

i can only offer my impressions....i met sun bear. i know there was a lot of controversy coming from full bloods because sun bear embraced whites and allowed them to sweat together. they felt he was giving away his culture.

all i know is he had a gentle energy and a sincere desire to help people.

As a past master of self-disillusionment, I feel for you and your conflict over what and whom to believe.

I've had some of the most amazing teachings from a street person drinking a bottle of cheap booze but who talked to me because I shared a smoke with him. How "credible" might he be seen because of what he was doing and how he lived his life? To some, not very - yet his words and insights blew my socks off.

I've also known of "elders" (they don't deserve a capital E in this instance, according to my pouting self) who target lovely young women looking for spiritual guidance and offer their "services" ... only if the woman gets in bed with them. Years ago, I myself was propositioned by one "elder" ... it took about twenty three showers to get the filth off of my skin after that.

It all goes back to the universal truth - humans are humans. Some let ego control their actions and intentions; some do their spiritual growth work and truly live as instruments of a higher power (whatever you call "it"). I've learned to trust my spidey senses, and if someone's energy feels disturbing, I trust that and withdraw respectfully. And if someone's energy feels kind and gentle, I can feel safe with them.

In my part of the world, Elders are not supposed to go around calling themselves "Elders". Something about that title that can get people into trouble with their egos. They permit others to call them Elders, but they don't prance around with a big head over their title, and they DON'T ask for money. They accept money - because of course, Elders have to eat and put a roof over their heads too. But if the first words out of an "elder's" mouth is fee, then that can be seen as a warning sign. They ask for Asemaa (Tobacco) but never money - that is to be offered, and should be offered, as a gift from the seeker.

raven poet

we too offer tobacco as a gift.

i think you're very wise to recognize teachers come in all shapes and shortcomings.

i met an old yaqui man and we had wonderful talks. he was an alchoholic and looked like a street person.

in our history, there was a priesthood called the nikitani. they started out good but ended up becoming all unbalanced. they used young girls and boys.

humans are humans.

as my mama used to say, 'don't judge a book by the cover'.....