No experts on meditation

[Gem]

I figured I'd start another thread because the conversation should go on. It has been ongoing since the dawning of humanity and won't come to an end simply because there is no conclusion to be drawn and no answer to the question.

Of course, it's very easy to prescribe a method of, but the intricacy and subtlety of a meditative practice is really quite impossible to convey, which is why I think the topic of meditation is a conversation rather than a discourse, and the nature of the narrative is responsive rather than prescriptive.

If you think about it, meditation is much more like listening than it is like telling, which makes me wonder about all the instructions and the advice that arises from the discourse that has created the teachers and the students of meditation.

Life is something that we all explore. We explore ourselves in mind and soul and it's a matter of great discovery to go into the uncharted lands simply to find out what is there, and it's not so much treading in trepidation out of fear of the unknown... it's more like the fear of leaving all that's known behind.

This is now bringing about the uncertainty. If I can't use the known in my meditative quest, how to I proceed? This is like when the tourist went to Dublin and got lost, so he asked a local man, 'how do I get to Dirk Street?' The local man said, 'You turn right here at this corner, then right at the next corner, then right at the next corner, then right at the next corner, and you'll then be on Dirk Street'. The tourist checked those directions on the map, and confused, he said to the Irishman, 'If I follow those directions I'll end up back here where I am now', to which the Irishman responded, 'Aye sir, for this here is Dirk Street'.

[jonesboy]

Meditation and the techniques within are shared in a meaningful way. Most often one will not understand the meaning until they have shared the experience.

What you think is to subtle too share is just your ego not wanting to hear.

Life is something that we all explore. We explore ourselves in mind and soul and it's a matter of great discovery to go into the uncharted lands simply to find out what is there, and it's not so much treading in trepidation out of fear of the unknown... it's more like the fear of leaving all that's known behind.

It is this fear where people get stuck. They find something like breath meditation and never move on. They think they have found the answer because it speaks to them, it moves them. They fail to see there is more to the puzzle and no matter what you do or say or try to show them. The fear will keep them from listening, from moving onward.

The path inward is one of discovery and letting go. Learning how to do that is where you need the assistance of a teacher. Of listening to someone who can provide you the extra tools to assist in that never ending inward path of discovery.

[Mr Interesting]

I found a really neato shop that had all these kinda working class Japanese antiques, or just well made old stuff anyways, stuck in a industrial area and I got into a conversation with the woman looking after it and she said she was a Buddhist, by birth (environment etc), but she was afraid to meditate.

That surprised me and all I could imagine was that the imagination could be a scary thing for some people.

Anyways yes, I agree to the extent that at a certain point each of us just has to let go of what we're told meditation is and just go off and discover it for ourselves which is like just about everything else in life... well, not just about, but everything.

That then would be about accepting ourselves and not necessarily an individualism so much as what we think. feel and are able to discern within that is ourselves. Ourselves then accepted as a kind of point of difference, as it were, then reaches out, expands, to explore the circumference of similarity.

[ThoughtOnFire]

I find meditation to be a great adventure into the realms of the self. We can make maps, but until somebody actually visits those places, they will only know of the stories told. But make no mistake, there ARE landmarks to point the way.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Meditation and the techniques within are shared in a meaningful way. Most often one will not understand the meaning until they have shared the experience.

The techniques aren't diminished and have a useful place but I question it as a form of prescription, and allude to the evolution of it through the response of conversation.

What you think is to subtle too share is just your ego not wanting to hear.

Power play ^

It is this fear where people get stuck. They find something like breath meditation and never move on. They think they have found the answer because it speaks to them, it moves them. They fail to see there is more to the puzzle and no matter what you do or say or try to show them. The fear will keep them from listening, from moving onward.

In terms of the conversation a person might talk about their method of breath meditation, and they might express being stuck, and if that's the case at hand, there would be some discussion about that...

It seems to me you created an imaginary person with a set of issues here, though.

The path inward is one of discovery and letting go. Learning how to do that is where you need the assistance of a teacher. Of listening to someone who can provide you the extra tools to assist in that never ending inward path of discovery.

I gather from what you've said that you adhere to the prescriptive discourse on meditation.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Mr Interesting

I found a really neato shop that had all these kinda working class Japanese antiques, or just well made old stuff anyways, stuck in a industrial area and I got into a conversation with the woman looking after it and she said she was a Buddhist, by birth (environment etc), but she was afraid to meditate.

That surprised me and all I could imagine was that the imagination could be a scary thing for some people.

We could probably take it as a given that fear is very common, and in the past I have met people who had an extreme meditation experience and were fearful thereafter, but fear can be secretive, too. I have also came across a number of meditators who experience being terrified but somehow find a way through it.

Anyways yes, I agree to the extent that at a certain point each of us just has to let go of what we're told meditation is and just go off and discover it for ourselves which is like just about everything else in life... well, not just about, but everything.

Of course what we are told makes up 'knowledge', so there is a tension between adherence to a known technique and going into the unknown. For example, a person might fall into deep places of the mind and suddenly remember, 'I'm supposed to observe the breath'... and I'm not against that, it might be good for all I know, but I will go so far as to say that this also attracts me to the conversation rather than the prescription in both contexts of fear and the unknown...

That then would be about accepting ourselves and not necessarily an individualism so much as what we think. feel and are able to discern within that is ourselves. Ourselves then accepted as a kind of point of difference, as it were, then reaches out, expands, to explore the circumference of similarity.

Yes, self acceptance. I think people all have a narrative in one form or the other, a self image that individuates them as a living body, and as humanity, we have problematic self imagery and healthy self imagery, but we also have a self that was formed through the past of the life path. I believe that formation of self is the self that needs 'acceptance'. This then means that one has to be willing toward the past rather than be overwhelmed by it, or hold judgements, resentments, grudges in it.

Freedom is to do with the known, the known is to do with memory and memory is to do with the past.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by ThoughtOnFire

I find meditation to be a great adventure into the realms of the self. We can make maps, but until somebody actually visits those places, they will only know of the stories told. But make no mistake, there ARE landmarks to point the way.

The issue as I see it, with being told, is that each living person has their unique experience. I can describe my experience to you, but I can't prescribe it to you. I also wonder if these 'places' and 'landmarks' are applicable to everyone, and I think it's more likely not to be the case, but there are still similarities between meditative experiences that we inter-relate to.

[sunsoul]

I don't think it is particularly difficult.... You find a technique or doorway that works for you. There is a choice there, and people will naturally attune to what works for them.

Also, I have no problem with seeing some people as having more experience than others. We don't even have to bring up the topic of them being enlightened or spiritually aware. The experience of the teacher will be something living and rich, something that can actually help transform people or sow some seeds. In the public eye we have the Dalai Lama or Thich Nhat Hanh.. But, you also have people further down the chain do their thing and helping people to live a little bit more naturally and calmly.

Yes, I am all for people not being brainwashed or meekly 'following instructions' but I don't think that happens the vast majority of the time. People usually meditate on their own anyway and the group sessions are relatively rare unlike other faiths or traditions. There is plenty of time to work out for yourself what works for you....... If you have a teacher to help you -especially in the early stages- this can only be of benefit to your practice.

Again, it all goes back to personal choice and we will choose how to practice and who to listen to!

[wstein]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

The path inward is one of discovery and letting go. Learning how to do that is where you need the assistance of a teacher. Of listening to someone who can provide you the extra tools to assist in that never ending inward path of discovery.

Ironically once one travels far enough 'inward', one realizes that they have expanded outward.

Eventually of course the whole notion of inward and outward goes away (as does the notion of you).

[wstein]

In my private (warped) view of meditation, most people never get past practicing meditation to actually meditating. They forever spend their time in the preliminaries battling ego, mind chatter, emotions, etc. I'm not saying those things aren't worthwhile, to me they just don't seem to be meditation itself. In my way of seeing it, meditation starts when one gets to just being.

Yes I know that's not the 'official' view.