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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Taoism

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  #1  
Old 25-08-2016, 06:33 AM
Vitality Vitality is offline
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Post For the truly wise, wisdom is a curse

Hi,

I found this statement in an online text - Musings of a Chinese Mystic, by Lionel Giles, [1906] when I was exploring about Tao and the Sage.
With the truly wise, wisdom is a curse, sincerity like glue, virtue only a means to acquire, and skill nothing more than a commercial capacity.
I have been pondering upon this since a few days. Any thoughts from the group members on this will help explore further.

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 25-08-2016, 07:16 AM
Robinski78 Robinski78 is offline
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Interesting Statement...

Sorry I can't throw any helpful answers on the table Vitality... All I can say, is that I'd consider there to be an element of truth in the entire statement, although there are some areas that could be questionable... I'm pleased you brought it to our attention... Many thanks for that... I shall follow this one with interest... It could prove to be a great topic...

Robbie....
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  #3  
Old 25-08-2016, 07:21 AM
wolfgaze wolfgaze is offline
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Hmm to be completely honest that quote just doesn't do anything for me...
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  #4  
Old 25-08-2016, 08:37 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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I like the quote. It reminds me that wisdom is a utility that enables one to do things well. My favorite video on wisdom: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWvSdW3rAIM
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  #5  
Old 25-08-2016, 08:45 AM
Robinski78 Robinski78 is offline
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Statement...

[Quote statement]
With the truly wise, wisdom is a curse, sincerity like glue, virtue only a means to acquire, and skill nothing more than a commercial capacity. [/unquote]…

On second thoughts, I will throw in a couple of ideas, that might fit the bill…

Imagine being the worlds wisest person… Then try to envisage, how often someone would be knocking on your front door, seeking an answer to something or the other… Your phone going day and night and the mail man, having to use the largest van, just to deliver your mail…
Such might be considered a ‘CURSE’…

Therefore, the first part of the statement would be relatively true - without question… That’s the way I see the ‘curse’ factor being applicable…

I think that ‘skill’ being referred to as a mere commercial capacity, is a somewhat demeaning attitude, when taking into account the effective ways, means and methods by which an individual may have developed their ability to achieve or produce a particular requirement to something approaching perfection…

Therefore: I would strongly oppose such a suggestion…

To be honest, as for the remaining ‘sincerity sticking like glue and virtue being a means of acquisition’ - I’m ‘virtually’ - ‘stuck’ for words…

Robbie….
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  #6  
Old 25-08-2016, 12:55 PM
Within Silence Within Silence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitality
Hi,

I found this statement in an online text - Musings of a Chinese Mystic, by Lionel Giles, [1906] when I was exploring about Tao and the Sage.
With the truly wise, wisdom is a curse, sincerity like glue, virtue only a means to acquire, and skill nothing more than a commercial capacity.
I have been pondering upon this since a few days. Any thoughts from the group members on this will help explore further.

Thanks!

"The truly wise"
Who can claim ownership to wisdom? Who is so proud as to call them self "truly wise?" Also, this is duality, to see oneself as wise then others must be un-wise or ignorant, hence now we have dividedness as the result of judgment i.e. labels/titles/names/descriptions which breeds contention.
Thus the Tao states in verse 19:
Throw away holiness and wisdom,
and people will be a hundred times happier. (Nothing to strive for, simplicity)
Throw away morality and justice,
and people will do the right thing. (We naturally know the right thing to do)
Throw away industry and profit,
and there won't be any thieves. (What's to steal when nothing is held as more valuable than anything else?)

If these three aren't enough,
just stay at the center of the circle
and let all things take their course. (Typical Taoist life style)

"Wisdom is a curse"
Those who think they know are difficult to guide. It is a common feature that people become lazy and arrogant when they are overly proud of what they know. Being proud of oneself does not really contain a negative or a disrespectful connotation; however, being arrogant does. And as Robinski stated the truly wise are sought after for their wisdom, to be exploited for their wisdom, and those who succumb to this attention can suffer the curse of an inflated sense of self, thus they build an identity around them self which they now have to uphold and protect, this creates a bondage which is in opposition to a Taoist life style of utter simplicity, patience and moderation and immense freedom=non-attachment. Also, those who think they know all the answers become lazy in really listening to others, really listening, and also fail others by giving them answers instead of allowing them to work things out for themselves which is really the only way to come to know for yourself. Also, the "truly wise" being held in high honor and worshiped by others creates the potential for idolatry. That is what Zen is for, it acts like toilet paper to wipe away the intellect, which is that which prevents ones own spontaneous intuition. To not know is the foundation from which wisdom arises.
Thus the Tao states in verse 65:
The ancient Masters
didn't try to educate the people,
but kindly taught them to not-know.

When they think that they know the answers,
people are difficult to guide.
When they know that they don't know,
people can find their own way.

If you want to learn how to govern,
avoid being clever or rich.
The simplest pattern is the clearest.
Content with an ordinary life,
you can show all people the way
back to their own true nature.

"Sincerity like glue"
This is pointing to identity and attachment; who is so serious and about what? Glue is sticky, it is used for attaching things, sincerity is a form of seriousness, thus to be overly serious is to have sincerity like glue, to be attached to this identity you've crated as a "truly wise one." The Taoist have a playful nature, like a child, simple, spontaneous, free spirited, flowing with life, not taking themselves or "the world" so seriously.
Thus the Tao States in Verse 20:
“Stop thinking, and end your problems.
What difference between yes and no?
What difference between success and failure?
Must you value what others value,
avoid what others avoid?
How ridiculous!

Other people are excited,
as though they were at a parade.
I alone don't care,
I alone am expressionless,
like an infant before it can smile.

Other people have what they need;
I alone possess nothing.
I alone drift about,
like someone without a home.
I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty.

Other people are bright;
I alone am dark.
Other people are sharp;
I alone am dull.
Other people have purpose;
I alone don't know.
I drift like a wave on the ocean,
I blow as aimless as the wind.

I am different from ordinary people.
I drink from the Great Mother's breasts. Thus, the Taoist lives in accordance with nature (the Great Mother) it has no agenda, no intention of its own perse, it doesn't claim to know what's best for you, in fact if anything, Taoism is a teaching of self mastery.


"virtue only a means to acquire"
Why are you being virtuous? To acquire praise, gratitude, to store up brownie points in a supposed heaven? To avoid guilt, to inflate your sense of self?
Thus the Tao states in Verse 38:
The highest good is not to seek to do good,
but to allow yourself to become it.
The Sage doesn’t try to be powerful;
thus he is truly powerful.
The ordinary man keeps reaching for power;
thus he never has enough.
~
The Sage does nothing,
yet he leaves nothing undone.
The ordinary man is always doing things,
yet accomplishes little.
~
The kind person acts from the heart
and accomplishes a multitude of things.
The righteous person acts out of piety,
yet leaves many things undone.
The moral person will act out of duty,
and when no one responds
will roll up his sleeves and use force.
~
The highest virtue is to act without a sense of self.
The highest kindness is to give without condition.
The highest justice is to see without preference.
~
When the Tao is forgotten, there is righteousness.
When righteousness is forgotten, there is morality.
When morality is forgotten, there is law and ritual.
Law and ritual are the husk of true faith,
and the beginning of chaos. (Notice where the world is today; with all its rules, laws, dogmas, morality, self righteousness etc. Thus humanity is in opposition to Tao, in a state of degeneration)
~
Therefore the Sage follows his own nature
and not the trappings of life.
The Sage concerns himself
with the depths and not the surface,
with the fruit and not the husk.
He dwells in the Tao,
and stays with the true, not the false.

"and skill nothing more than a commercial capacity"
Again why are you doing what you're doing, what are you using the energy of Tao for, what are you using your skills for? Just for money; i.e. a commercial capacity? Or because you love it? And if we're still defining the "truly wise one" are they selling their wisdom for a profit? If we look out into the world today, at all the many supposed "Gurus" they seem to be charging exorbitant fees for their "Wisdom." Is wisdom your own to posses and sell, to withhold from those who cannot afford it?
Thus the Tao States in Verse 48.
One who seeks knowledge
learns something new each day.
One who seeks the Tao
unlearns something new each day.
The practice of the Tao consists of daily diminishing;
less and less do you need to force things,
until finally you arrive at non-action.
When nothing is done,
nothing is left undone.

True mastery is achieved
by letting things take their natural course.
It cannot be gained by interfering.

This post is not aimed at you Vitality, nor anyone else directly. I simply wanted to express my interpretation of the statement you posted. As always, I don't claim to know that this is how the original author intended its statement, so please believe nothing I say and search all things for yourself.
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  #7  
Old 25-08-2016, 01:00 PM
knightofalbion knightofalbion is offline
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Wisdom is always and only a blessing.

Imagine being lost on a dark and desolate moor. then by chance stumbling across a map, a compass and a torch. Wisdom is the map, the compass and the torch!

It won't carry you home, but it will show you the way ....

Wisdom, like love, was made to be shared. A true man of the light would never turn down a sincere request for advice and guidance.
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If you set out each day to do all the goodness and kindness that you can, and to do no harm to man or beast, then you are walking the highest path.
And when your time is up, if you can leave the earth a better place than you found it, then yours will have been a life well lived.

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  #8  
Old 25-08-2016, 02:56 PM
Earth Healer Earth Healer is offline
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Posts: 110
 
I think the quote speaks to the idea that to truly understand, to go deeper, one must transcend the mind. Its juxtaposing "wise" -- a state of being, with "wisdom" -- something that is acquired. Tao does not require wisdom, though through Tao one might become wise.
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  #9  
Old 28-08-2016, 09:44 AM
Vitality Vitality is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earth Healer
I think the quote speaks to the idea that to truly understand, to go deeper, one must transcend the mind. Its juxtaposing "wise" -- a state of being, with "wisdom" -- something that is acquired. Tao does not require wisdom, though through Tao one might become wise.

Agreed!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Earth Healer
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  #10  
Old 28-08-2016, 09:46 AM
Vitality Vitality is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 18
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinski78
[Quote statement]
With the truly wise, wisdom is a curse, sincerity like glue, virtue only a means to acquire, and skill nothing more than a commercial capacity. [/unquote]…

On second thoughts, I will throw in a couple of ideas, that might fit the bill…

Imagine being the worlds wisest person… Then try to envisage, how often someone would be knocking on your front door, seeking an answer to something or the other… Your phone going day and night and the mail man, having to use the largest van, just to deliver your mail…
Such might be considered a ‘CURSE’…

Therefore, the first part of the statement would be relatively true - without question… That’s the way I see the ‘curse’ factor being applicable…

I think that ‘skill’ being referred to as a mere commercial capacity, is a somewhat demeaning attitude, when taking into account the effective ways, means and methods by which an individual may have developed their ability to achieve or produce a particular requirement to something approaching perfection…

Therefore: I would strongly oppose such a suggestion…

To be honest, as for the remaining ‘sincerity sticking like glue and virtue being a means of acquisition’ - I’m ‘virtually’ - ‘stuck’ for words…

Robbie….

Very interesting perspective Robbie...
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