Lookin for Truth in all the wrong places

[Perspective]

Originally Posted by Phroggy

The motivation is personal, but Truth is not.

Hi Phroggy,
My impression of truth is that it is personal. What's true for me, may not be true for you, but that doesn't subtract from the truthfullness I experience.

I can see how the essence of us (our spirits) are eternal... And there are universal truths that apply to everyone, but still, to me, this universal truth is ALL perspectives & we each have a part of this.

If we stop seeking truth, then we stop learning & loving.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by Gem

One does have to look into things with a balanced mind, because there is experience and there are people.

Gem believes he is and names this entity constituted of memorised experiences future fisions and self impressions, so it is easy for Gem to recount aspects of himself, his finer qualities and his depavities and it is ridiculous to claim this doesn't exist since it is so plainly obvious, and also applies to you.

I know how convenient it is to discount everything apparant and call it illusion, but it does not seem insightful, because whether there is or isn't a you are just two opposing points of view.

If someone wishes to seek then so be it, what else would he do? I can't see this reflects denial, attachment or any of these assumptions. If the belief is 'I'm seeking truth' that is just observed to be, and I have noticed all those placing themselves in wize positions have done their fair share of seeking too.

Yes, I should probably be clear that Im not suggesting we somehow use the idea of 'illusion' to try and escape life, Self, God. Thats not what I was trying to suggest. If I behave obnoxiously from fear, I own it as soon as I can. I dont tell myself, 'Oh its ok to behave that way because its an illusion'. That would not be helpful! I am a big fan of Carl Jung and his shadow self idea and I am not suggesting that we should be trying to avoid observing our behaviour as a way of becoming conscious. The process of becoming more conscious has primarily been one of self-honesty and self-acceptance for me, and when I talk of 'illusion' I am simply addressing the context of this thread and the rather abstract idea of 'self-realization'.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by andrew g

There really isnt much difference between looking outside of self as looking inside of self because the story OF 'self' (as the one who looks) is still being upheld. If the end to searching is what you want, then I would say that questioning beliefs is helpful here.

Hi Mate

I think you perhaps misunderstand how the search unfolds andy and what transforms

When an Individual looks Inwards, there Is no Internal focus as such. What happens and what unfolds doesn’t actually happen within these are just terms and words that I use. (I hope they are not too misleading) I think many would understand that God or who we are Is within us although God Isn’t. It all seemingly happens In our Individual energy field and there Is no restriction to how vast It can be hence an Individual can be trapped within the mind body and an Individual can absorb universal knowledge..

Individuality allows each of us to recognise / remember / realize what we are - In this unique and seemingly separate human form.

It would seem that Meher baba for Instance realized that we all are God (lol) - but the man at the supermarket hasn’t.

Individual realization doesn’t happen to all - Why?

I feel you presume that I am still looking for something? As mentioned the search Involves no searching not In the same way that an Individual looks for a needle In a hay stack.

What unfolds Is realization of what we are, we don’t actually find ourselves In a way that we could say that we are missing In the first Instance or that we are somehow lost - These are yet again more words that try and describe before and an after realized state.

We In essence remember and acknowledge what has seemingly been absent undiscovered and unknown.

x daz x

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hi Mate

I think you perhaps misunderstand how the search unfolds andy and what transforms

When an Individual looks Inwards, there Is no Internal focus as such. What happens and what unfolds doesn’t actually happen within these are just terms and words that I use. (I hope they are not too misleading) I think many would understand that God or who we are Is within us although God Isn’t. It all seemingly happens In our Individual energy field and there Is no restriction to how vast It can be hence an Individual can be trapped within the mind body to an Individual absorbing universal knowledge..

Individuality allows each of us to recognise / remember / realize what we are - In this unique and seemingly separate human form.

It would seem that Meher baba for Instance realized that we all are God (lol) - but the man at the supermarket hasn’t.

Individual realization doesn’t happen to all - Why?

I feel you presume that I am still looking for something? As mentioned the search Involves no searching not In the same way that an Individual looks for a needle In a hay stack.

What unfolds Is realization of what we are, we don’t actually find ourselves In a way that we could say that we are missing In the first Instance or that we are somehow lost - These are yet again more words that try and describe before and an after realized state.

We In essence remember and acknowledge what has seemingly been absent undiscovered and unknown.

x daz x

From what you have said I have made the assumption that you are still working towards something. Towards a goal. Towards a realized state. Towards a knowing yourself as God. This working IS looking/searching. The point Im trying to make is that 'looking' requires a belief in a looker - no matter where we look or what we look at its still the same belief. Its this very belief IN a looker that needs to be released if the end of working/looking/searching is the goal. Based on the assumption that I made about the work you have been doing, I actually feel that if you are going to look somewhere, looking to mind/belief would be the most helpful place to look. You will find that it is essentially mind looking at itself.

I could probably cobble together some kind of rationale for why self-realization doesnt happen to every human but its just not that relevent right now I feel.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by andrew g

From what you have said I have made the assumption that you are still working towards something. Towards a goal. Towards a realized state. Towards a knowing yourself as God. This working IS looking/searching. The point Im trying to make is that 'looking' requires a belief in a looker - no matter where we look or what we look at its still the same belief. Its this very belief IN a looker that needs to be released if the end of working/looking/searching is the goal. Based on the assumption that I made about the work you have been doing, I actually feel that if you are going to look somewhere, looking to mind/belief would be the most helpful place to look. You will find that it is essentially mind looking at itself.

I could probably cobble together some kind of rationale for why self-realization doesnt happen to every human but its just not that relevent right now I feel.

Yes I can understand that It appears that I am working towards something and “In away” part of me still Is.

I can therefore understand why you have said this.

Let me try and explain.


Do you know of those effervescent Vitamin C tablets that dissolve in water.

Well If I was to say that at one point I thought I was the tablet.

My Initial enquiry prompted me to make a change or experience what I am because I was restless being a tablet I felt that I was something else, so Intuitively I jumped Into a glass of water.

What happened then was “what I thought I was” started to dissolve away. I had no control over what was happening, a process began that was automated.

We could suggest that whilst dissolving I am looking towards be-ing completely dissolved and we could say that while I am dissolving all that I am not - a search Is on-going, but It’s not really like that, not In that way.

Very difficult to explain / describe In words.

x daz x

the 'nature of avoidance' must be non acceptance of the the present moment (or what IS) then

or as eckhardt would say , a dysfunctional relationship with the present moment will be reflected in every relationship and situation that we encounter

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Yes I can understand that It appears that I am working towards something and “In away” part of me still Is.

I can therefore understand why you have said this.

Let me try and explain.


Do you know of those effervescent Vitamin C tablets that dissolve in water.

Well If I was to say that at one point I thought I was the tablet.

My Initial enquiry prompted me to make a change or experience what I am because I was restless being a tablet I felt that I was something else, so Intuitively I jumped Into a glass of water.

What happened then was “what I thought I was” started to dissolve away. I had no control over what was happening, a process began that was automated.

We could suggest that whilst dissolving I am looking towards be-ing completely dissolved and we could say that while I am dissolving all that I am not - a search Is on-going, but It’s not really like that, not In that way.

Very difficult to explain / describe In words.

x daz x

I like the analogy, but what I would say is that what might be blocking you from dissolving is the belief that there is something to dissolve into, and also the belief that there is something TO dissolve. There is a time to play the dissolving (finding) game by making the one to dissolve 'real' and making that which is dissolved into 'real', and a time to look at the game and see it for what it is and come back fully into the Now. Coming back into the Now requires seeing the stories for what they are. Stories of the mind. Noise!

What if all your karmic work is done and the only thing thats blocking you from dissolving is a slight attachment TO the work itself? I guess you could then work on the attachment TO the work, or you could just let the whole darn thing go. There is a time to see it for what it is. Some work may periodically arise for you to do as emotions continue to surface, but the GOAL is basically released, and its the goal achieving that IS the suffering. You dont have to be fully healed daz. I would say I am pretty disidentified but emotions still arise. I still sometimes ask the angels for help with something. I still sometimes close my eyes and meditate for a bit. But none of it is a big deal because Im not working towards something beyond what arises in the moment.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by blackfellawhitefella

the 'nature of avoidance' must be non acceptance of the the present moment (or what IS) then

or as eckhardt would say , a dysfunctional relationship with the present moment will be reflected in every relationship and situation that we encounter

Yes. Nice. Good to see another member of the S.F clan back :)

Lazarus72, your absence has also been noted. Come back and bring some more Prodigy with you :)

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by andrew g

I like the analogy, but what I would say is that what might be blocking you from dissolving is the belief that there is something to dissolve into, and also the belief that there is something TO dissolve.

Thanks for your words andy - wise indeed.

I know that you are sincerely trying to help me.

Let me ask you this - In reference to which I have highlighted.

I am consciously aware that I am something. For you to suggest for me to perhaps detach / disbelieve that there Is a something / someone to dissolve I need the realization of that for It to be totally effective.

I could say that “I am nothing” and that I don’t exist all day long but It’s not gonna hold any cred when my stomach growls and asks for din dins... (lol)

How does an Individual detach themselves from all that they are not without having the realizations of all that they are not.

Do you think telling yourself that you are or are not God Is equal to realizing that you are or are not God for example?

Only the realizations of such things can bring peace to the enquirer.

Whilst I am still dissolving I have to seemingly deal with what arises, until there Is nothing more to arise...

x daz x

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Thanks for your words andy - wise indeed.

I know that you are sincerely trying to help me.

Let me ask you this - In reference to which I have highlighted.

I am consciously aware that I am something. For you to suggest for me to perhaps detach / disbelieve that there Is a something / someone to dissolve I need the realization of that for It to be totally effective.

This conscious awareness that you ARE something is actually just a belief. Im simply suggesting you question the belief. This is Nisargadatta's specialist subject....

''What is this state before this knowledge ‘I am’ came upon me? When the knowledge ‘ I am’ came, the one who is satisfied with that will reach the state where he considers himself God and ‘Brahman’. But he does not go beyond it or prior to it. In the ultimate state lies the prior state; that is, the state before this knowledge ‘I am’ ever dawned on me – the highest state, the best state, the original state.''

''With the arrival of the consciousness, it occurs to you that you are; simultaneously, ‘I am’ occurs to you or in your attention. So when the consciousness is not there, attention is also not there. Subsequent to the arrival of consciousness and attention, everything else crept in. The Absolute state is prior to consciousness; it means the unborn state. Since the ‘Parabrahman’ is the unborn state, prior to consciousness, can it have an iota of knowledge?''







I could say that “I am nothing” and that I don’t exist all day long but It’s not gonna hold any cred when my stomach growls and asks for din dins... (lol)

Right. To believe that ''I am nothing'' would be equally unhelpful. The belief in the existence of the ''I'' itself needs to be questioned.

How does an Individual detach themselves from all that they are not without having the realizations of all that they are not.

Do you think telling yourself that you are or are not God Is equal to realizing that you are or are not God for example?

Telling oneself stuff about who we are or are not is not helpful. Its just a bunch of beliefs. ''No belief is True'' (Phroggy).

Only the realizations of such things can bring peace to the enquirer.

Whilst I am still dissolving I have to seemingly deal with what arises, until there Is nothing more to arise...

x daz x

You cannot dissolve for as long as you believe that you ARE still dissolving. That there IS a you to dissolve. The self-realized state is not a big deal, 'peace' is as natural as breathing. Its not a grandiose thing. Its not how we imagine it to be - it cannot be by definition. We want the satisfaction of knowing that we are self-realized and that we are at peace, but by definition, in a self-realized state there is no satisfaction, because satisfaction comes from a mind-knowing. Its just a way of living in which there is no need to achieve something, a way of living in which we are at peace with having nothing to do! I wouldnt even say its better, its just different. Its just about being in allowance of what arises in each moment. There may still be emotions, there may still be discomfort, there may still be hunger. Its so easy to fall into the trap of thinking that 'enlightenment' is a state of being. Its not. Its just who we are when we are not busy creating and getting in the way of that which is already present, here and now.

By all means carry on with the work daz. In my opinion though, based on what you have told me, you have done more than enough karmic work to let it go and just trust that what arises in each moment is perfect. You already ARE self-realized you just havent realized that yet. You might need to get a new hobby though as letting go of something to work towards kind of leaves us with nothing to do! And for many people, having nothing to do and nothing to work towards is really the last fear we face.