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  #1  
Old 17-01-2018, 09:57 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Lillith and Samael

Hello all!....

I posted this recently under the thread "Lillith left Eden" under General Beliefs section. However, because my response is very much grounded in a more progressive interpretation and is rooted in Jewish and Kabbalistic tradition, I don't think some folks knew what to make of it.

I think these ages-old archetypes and revisiting our relationship to them is important and informative...it tells much about where we as humanity are on our journey.

I was wondering what anyone else might think about these historically "evil" or "bad" archetypes which we constructed in the past to manage how we dealt with the yetzer hara in its darker connotations.

Peace & blessings
7L
------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalli

Seems reasonable, even paradise isn't paradise without freedom.

And why do men think women should be subordinate to them?
They are to be our partners, equals in life.

I have to say...this topic is very timely to me.
Lillith and Samael as archetypal aspects of our existence need to be revisited from time to time on our spiritual journeys...

Here are a few key excerpts I thought were informative, usually at the top or bottom of these historically fascinating articles...

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...-bible/lilith/

Quote:
Lilith’s relationship with Adam is a different matter. Their conflict is one of patriarchal authority versus matriarchal desire for emancipation, and the warring couple cannot reconcile. They represent the archetypal battle of the sexes. Neither attempts to solve their dispute or to reach some kind of compromise where they take turns being on top (literally and figuratively). Man cannot cope with woman’s desire for freedom, and woman will settle for nothing less. In the end, they both lose.
https://www.themystica.com/mystica/a...f_eve_the.html

Quote:
Many women possess the Lilith aspect of the feminine personality, Samael in men. This is an personality aspect which represents the witch's knife giving her the determination and strength to depart or cut away from taking the sheltered and traditional path of womanhood, a path usually male and power driven. The nontraditional path leads its feminine traveler on a very different road than the one traveled by the average woman, often at first to isolation. In the feeling of complete aloneness, and sometimes shame, the person asks, "What have I done?" But such isolation and shame when accepted as challenges can issue forth fortitude. After healing oneself from wounds inflicted by ordinary society the woman decides whether she is going to repeatedly accept those wounds or fight back. If her Lilith aspect fully develops, she fights back by deciding the best ways of meeting numerous situations. She uses her knife to destroy injurious situations, and defend herself. Performing her tasks may by slow and arduous but she seeks self-equality and justice. She seeks selfhood as Lilith did when storming heaven's gate.
I think Lillith represents the human desire for acceptance in parity, not in subservience, oppression or slavery. Women's desire for parity is necessary for true love, authentic love, between partners. For real connection and not conditional or qualified or exchange-based "connection".

This radical idea -- that authentic love should be the foundation of all human relationship -- because authentic love is the ground of our being -- was worth killing, enslaving, castigating, and demonising women who were evolved enough spiritually to seek it out.

Lillith as independent woman with her own mind and voice was cast by the crusty old farts of the day as a mystically powerful, enticing, yet demanding [she-dog] with all manner of horrid traits...because she wanted to share in love as true partners and she didn't want to be dominated. Why was this archetype even necessary? Because...misogyny and prejudices, primal fears, lust for power and domination, etc.

The very truth of what is, was tarred and feathered. But now, folks are beginning to see that this parity and this authentic love is true and good...no coercion or power over required, as domination will never allow for the authentic love that yields a true desire for the beloved (in a woman for a man she loves).

Samael (known as Azrael in Arabic writings), also known as the Angel of Death, has been cast in Christianity as the ultimate bad guy but the reality is much more complex. Like Lillith. There is a recognition even historically that Samael held spaces for darkness and thus also for light up through physical death, which in turn critically allows humanity to grow and exercise free will in a material existence. But also that he is serving the greater good in so doing. Likewise, mortality and death has been seen as both good and bad...as a somehow unfortunate part of material existence (one that came with the good or intended outcome of leaving the garden as humanity left to embark on our spiritual journey with self-awareness), or even as an evil curse, by traditional religion -- but also as something that gave weight and meaning to the duration of our existence here. To many on their paths now, however, we see death is not something to be feared but rather to be embraced on our journey.

We need the space to explore and reclaim and transmute the energies that we are...and to re-direct the darkest and most destructive energies or aspects to serve a greater purpose. In a great many cases, there is no "gun to your head"...so where is the ownership? What's that?...the devil made you do it? LOL....please. That's the whole point, to take the tough decisions when faced with the opportunity to use and abuse, and to take the ownership for those choices, and to grow up.

From Wiki:

Quote:
Quote:

Samael (Hebrew: סַמָּאֵל‬, "Venom of God"[1] or "Poison of God", or "Blindness of God" Samael or Samil)[2][3][4] is an important archangel in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore, a figure who is an accuser, seducer, and destroyer, and has been regarded as both good and evil. Rabbinical writings describe Samael as the guardian angel of Esau (and the Roman empire)[5] and a patron of Edom.

He is considered in Talmudic texts to be a member of the heavenly host (with often grim and destructive duties). One of Samael's greatest roles in Jewish lore is that of the main archangel of death. He remains one of God's servants even though he condones the sins of man. As an angel, Samael resides in the seventh heaven, although he is declared to be the chief angel of the fifth heaven, the reason for this being the presence of the throne of glory in the seventh heaven.[6]
What I'm saying is that...from my perspective, the traditional interpretations are fear-based and are not grounded in an awareness of authentic love between partners. The traditional interpretations assume men require the subjugation, degradation, and even violent treatment (coercive sex without consent as normal and mandatory) of women, just like modern pornography. Because of that, a woman's natural power and her primordial (dark) energy (the Yin) must be evil. As represented by Lillith. And Samael, who is tasked with holding the antimatter and thus the space necessary for material existence and free will, must be evil. Since men's free will allows men to use and abuse others and generally do a lot of bad stuff, as well as the good stuff.

IMO this is basically scapegoating Source and/or the angels (specific ones) for our individual weaknesses and misaligned choices and behaviours, which is on so many levels just ridiculous. Unless there is a literal gun to your head (or equivalent), then it's about time we began to take ownership, and not by saying OK as of right now, bad is good and what we've been doing is now OK so carry on. But rather by saying, hey it's not OK and it's never been OK...it's time to man up and face the truth square in the eye. It's time we took the hard choices and quit perpetrating x, y, and z rubbish on those in our lives, full stop. And it's time to see why we used to need these rather vile archetypes...to hold our fear and our hatred for women and for our own weaknesses. That's why revisiting these archetypes and how we view them is so meaningful, IMO.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
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  #2  
Old 18-01-2018, 01:19 PM
starnight1 starnight1 is offline
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I dislike eve, i like Lilith ,she is true feminine, i dont know the traiditonal explaination about her (murder the babies)r true or not....when the archetype comes to me, she doesnt appear to be dark.

Azrael is the wisdom of death. without death there is no life.
the deep truth starts from angel of death.
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  #3  
Old 18-01-2018, 09:08 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Starnight -- wow...agreed full stop. Beautiful response.

I feel these archetypes have been manipulated out of fear, over the ages. Eve too was tarred and feathered in many interpretations. And we were all diminished as a result. Men and women. These archetypes, particularly of Lillith and Eve, are lacking and have not served us well IMO, but they show us where we've been. Adam is always seen as less culpable, because he trusted her and she manipulated him. So Lillith is a shrew but Eve is a conniving wench, whilst Adam's lesson is women are morally and ethically bankrupt. Don't trust women or you are a fool.

Rather than Lillith is spiritually evolved woman -- already self-aware -- whilst Eve was doing her bit (self-awareness) to get herself and Adam there. And that it was a beautiful thing that Adam trusted Eve, but not that he failed to take ownership of his own decision to take a bite. LOL!

And what you said about Azrael is beautiful. Agreed.
Spot on. Any other thoughts on Azrael?

Why do so many associate him with great evil? Who else does evil to humankind but humankind? Only humankind. This initial association with sin or evil in choosing knowledge (self-awareness) and the responsibility of free will is one I don't get. That is such a beautiful thing. More progressive interpretations in Judaism do see this as the first step on humankind's journey without any pejorative or negative association. More just out of spiritual womb into our spiritual infancy.

((( )))

I wonder if any others have comments on these midrash or legends?
I have often thought of posting some as I feel the whole creation story is often misinterpreted in many traditions with an element of blame and shame.

Peace & blessings,
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #4  
Old 19-01-2018, 07:56 AM
starnight1 starnight1 is offline
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there r things about Azrael r different fm the traditional pespectives, too,

Azrael is known to be the dark angel ,some books say he is peacock angel, also the ancient god seth, Thoth. etc.
He is the first angel created.

I feel usually Lilith and Azrael manifest together. or maybe just for myself is thus. , and i still dont know why that happens.....
i need to find the answer, too....

well, i just find the poem by someone reflecting his image , i didnt see him though i just heard the voice and feel,

Dark Angel Your Beauty
Deceives The Light
For It’s Inside Of You
That Shines So Bright

Your Loving Caring
Giving Soul
Blankets Me Like Mist
On A Grassy Knoll

You Ask For So Little
Yet Give So Much
And I Feel So Loved
When I Feel Your Touch

You’re The Greatest Treasure
Any Man’s Ever Had
I Don’t Know How I Found You
But I Sure Am Glad

I Pity Other Men
Who Can Look But Never See
For The Light Is Their Deception
And You Have Chosen Me
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Old 19-01-2018, 03:57 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Starlight that's a beautiful poem and it captures the essence well, I feel. Thank you for sharing that.

Yes, the first angel created. I think some have seen him throughout the ages and assumed it was Michael (who also has been seen on battlefields or in places of war and death, good and evil, etc.). Thus I think some portray him in art as the robust, larger-than-life "blond Michael" Meaning, I think they may have "seen" Azrael but assume this is Michael, who for me is different to this in appearance and energy.

I can see the confusion for some because their energies are both relatively welcoming and low-key in presentation to me, gentle in their immense power and intentionally not intimidating. Meaning, they both tend to tone down their full energy presence to make us more comfortable.

Also because of the legends which portray the angel of death as "bad" or "evil", they assume this angel has a hideous or nefarious appearance and presence. When that's not the case at all.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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Old 19-01-2018, 04:01 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Starlight that's a beautiful poem and it captures the essence well, I feel. Thank you for sharing that.

Yes, the first angel created. I think some have seen him throughout the ages and assumed it was Michael (also on battlefields or in places of war and death, good and evil). Thus I think some portray him in art as the robust, larger-than-life "blond Michael" Meaning, I think they may have "seen" Azrael but assume this is Michael, who for me is different to this in appearance and energy.

I can see the confusion for some because their energies are both relatively welcoming and low-key in presentation to me, gentle in their immense power and intentionally not intimidating. Meaning, they both tend to tone down their full energy presence to make us more comfortable.

Also because of the legends which portray the angel of death as "bad" or "evil", they assume this angel has a hideous or nefarious appearance and presence. When that's not the case at all.

Also...it's very interesting what you say about both of Lillith and Azrael/Samael manifesting together. I haven't had that experience but I have mostly had interaction (so to speak) in meditation and healing sessions with guides, for the purposes of learning and healing. So this may be a totally different sort of experience to yours.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #7  
Old 17-02-2018, 02:27 PM
starnight1 starnight1 is offline
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7luminaries ,I want to show a friend that Samael known as Azrael, is there a link to say about it?
Thank u...:)
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Old 23-02-2018, 02:21 AM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Hello Starnight,

The main source was Wiki...which notes he is the primary Angel of Death.
The rest of the description is the usual Jewish description of the Angel of Death and of "the adversary" or "satan" in Hebrew. He's not a huge big bad deal as he is for Christians, but it's the same figure just perceived differently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael

Quote:
Samael (Hebrew: סַמָּאֵל‬, "Venom of God"[1] or "Poison of God", or "Blindness of God" Samael or Samil)[2][3][4] is an important archangel in Talmudic and post-Talmudic lore, a figure who is an accuser, seducer, and destroyer, and has been regarded as both good and evil. Rabbinical writings describe Samael as the guardian angel of Esau (and the Roman empire)[5] and a patron of Edom.

He is considered in Talmudic texts to be a member of the heavenly host (with often grim and destructive duties). One of Samael's greatest roles in Jewish lore is that of the main archangel of death. He remains one of God's servants even though he condones the sins of man. As an angel, Samael resides in the seventh heaven, although he is declared to be the chief angel of the fifth heaven, the reason for this being the presence of the throne of glory in the seventh heaven.[6]


But here are some other sources:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/angel-of-death
see 2nd and last paragraph

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azrael
the picture shown at right actually looks to be a reasonable representation of how I see this being, but of course it lacks animation and presence.
this contains a link to the "Angel of Death" Wiki page...listing their two names and a few other things
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroying_angel_(Bible)

http://www.samaelaunweor.info/identi...el-samael.html
for info

Hope this is helpful!
Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #9  
Old 25-02-2018, 01:10 AM
Ariaecheflame Ariaecheflame is offline
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This is a great thread... I'm enjoying what I've read so far.

There is this whole repressed aspect contained within the mythology of Lilith representing something which I fell will be emerging more within the collective over the next few years and decades.
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