I'm Sorry Everyone - Here's The Reason I Acted That Way

[Podshell]

I don't think that can be claimed summerland, that it is all lucid dreaming. That is a bit like claiming all our experiences in life are lucid dreaming because we can replicate them in lucid dreaming. For some people they may have never been aware in the astral and only aware of their lucid dreams.

I believe I have been in the astral and my astral body has been awake in the astral but don't think there is a way I can prove it, I also think I have experienced lucid dreaming (including replications of astral travel)far more often than the actuality.

Originally Posted by Summerlander

These people can't prove anything to you, 12padams. The truth about the phase is that it is all lucid dreaming. Whether lucid dreams can be telepathic or not is another story. Even if this is so, it still doesn't prove that an astral plane exists or that people consciously survive physical death.

You see what I mean! I don't know how to follow anymore :(
For those wondering Summerlander is the second most active poster on the website I was talking about earlier. I joined that website and got to the point of 99% believing them. Just when I started opening up to you guys again look what happens... Summerlander comes with his very convincing theories which have an actual scienfic backup rather than the empty threats I receive here.

Here's what I think some of you should do... Listen to summerlander, read "the practical guidebook" - a free book by micheal raduga which summerlander often quotes and follows. Then find ways to falsify certain paragraphs. Also if possible try and astrally meet summerlander and give him proof. If you can covert an strong skeptic like him you would be taking out a whole chunk at obe4u.com

You are welcome to believe in what you believe in, Podshell. But to quote Stephen LaBerge verbatim:

"Perception is dreaming true. Dreaming is perception free"

In other words, perception while in the waking state is "dreaming" constrained by sensory input. On the other hand, dreaming is perception free from sensory input. the mental clay can adopt any shape it wishes. I see no reason disproving this view and overwhelming evidence in my experience with altered states of consciousness.

I have also experienced something like peeling away layers of my sense of self during meditation. For a nano-second, I saw that there was no core and I was no longer the onion. Something to ponder about...

Here's what I think some of you should do... Listen to summerlander, read "the practical guidebook" - a free book by micheal raduga which summerlander often quotes and follows. Then find ways to falsify certain paragraphs. Also if possible try and astrally meet summerlander and give him proof. If you can covert an strong skeptic like him you would be taking out a whole chunk at obe4u.com

Yeah... I am like the James Randi of these forums! LOL!

[Podshell]

One problem with that quote summerlander is SL is assuming that there is no external input while dreaming, therefore he is already concluding that no astral body movement is taking place.

Originally Posted by 12padams

You see what I mean! I don't know how to follow anymore :(
For those wondering Summerlander is the second most active poster on the website I was talking about earlier. I joined that website and got to the point of 99% believing them. Just when I started opening up to you guys again look what happens... Summerlander comes with his very convincing theories which have an actual scienfic backup rather than the empty threats I receive here.

Here's what I think some of you should do... Listen to summerlander, read "the practical guidebook" - a free book by micheal raduga which summerlander often quotes and follows. Then find ways to falsify certain paragraphs. Also if possible try and astrally meet summerlander and give him proof. If you can covert an strong skeptic like him you would be taking out a whole chunk at obe4u.com

What happened to everything in your book? Were they just figments of your imagination? You quickly defended it to being truth when someone questioned it on this forum but then you turn and say that you haven't had any experiences that could be proven otherwise.

Anyone can say what you experienced is a load of crock, it's up to you whether you believe them or not. Also, how can anyone and I mean ANYONE astral project and prove to him when he's not even perceptive to the astral? Are you saying astral project to him and mess with the physical? Even if one were to go over there and label his stuff to him, guess what, it's all coincidence. It'll be debunked quickly, it's not worth our time to even begin to HOPE that we could help prove anything to someone who isn't willing to listen. How many posts has he made saying or insisting that his belief is absolute truth but our belief is fairy tale? Look at the user's posts and count them off, you will find pages upon pages of how everyone here is wrong but he's right. What kind of role model is that to look up to since that's what you're implying you're doing here.

And lastly, why are you even FOLLOWING? The ultimate goal is to be independent, you have been told countless of times before by ALL sides (the "real side", in between, and the "mind side") to find your own proof, you have your own e-books which show many different occasions which were experiences which by the way, Summerlander has denounced before and will continue regardless. You can say it's challenging the belief but really he's just trash talking it. He came with a biased perspective and he has yet to actually say: "Well it could've happened" or has taken any other approach of possibilities, because there ARE no other possibilities to him by what he's "preaching". It's all make believe and what he believes is total truth, if that's the kind of guy you wish to follow, go for it, by all means go for it, but don't expect to go any distance with it, you're stuck in place in that mind-set. There is nothing to look forward to but dreams awake with no conclusion, no real material but "Oh, I probably saw this because of this event in my day." When you reach the point that they promise you'll reach, then where will you be heading? There is no room for anything and it's all just some dream or day dream.

I can't keep up with you guys!

I found the forum mentioned.
Just downloaded your books yesterday. Thank you for the great amount of
effort you must have put into them. I am surprised and impressed when a
human gives away anything. I hate seeing price tags on knowledge and
wisdom of any kind. I wish it to be shared freely. The best is that
which comes from direct experience and the ideas, thoughts and
impressions gained from that experience. It is far more valuable than
repetition of learned beliefs, dogma and doctrine. And hats off to
anyone willing to sweep away the dogma and take what could well be a
perilous leap of faith in his own consciousness and abilities.

Hope my post didn't sound threatening. I just thought it all
amusing. But I may well have missed something.

'All reality is but a figment of imagination.'

I don't know why I feel summerlander and 12padams are the same person.
Ok, mb I'm wrong, mb 12padams just called summerlander to spam forum?

[Xan]

AP issues are like any others in life... religion, politics, relationships, etc. etc.

We can take up fixed opinions and positions, trying to prove something about our own sense of rightness and personal worth.

Or we can take a step back and ask, "What do I really want from this? Is it to engage in forum wars, or explore and experience something on my own?"

Giving up the fight opens up many more possibilities that couldn't been seen before.


Xan

[Astral Explorer]

Nobody can use astral projection as a way to convince someone one way or the other. Astral projection is a personal act used for spiritual growth if you are using it for anything else chances are you will stop having projections. There are certain people that have the ability to use it otherwise but it is rare. I have never seen a living Dinosaur but does that mean they never existed? No, it surely doesn't. Your beliefs are all back wards the second you started thinking that if you cannot will yourself to astral project that somebody else could meta-physically pull you out of your body was hopeless.

Originally Posted by ZOV

I don't know why I feel summerlander and 12padams are the same person.
Ok, mb I'm wrong, mb 12padams just called summerlander to spam forum?

Summerlander = 29 years old
12padams = 18 years old

Reason they act similar = both came from the same website which hosts a "its all in your head" approach to astral projection.

Summerlander won't convert unless he is given absolute scientific proof
12padams wont fully convert unless he experiences something not scientific but as close as possible to undeniable proof.

Reason Summerlander came: He noticed I had joined this forum and checked it out then realized it went against his beliefs.