Are we all One?

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by iamthat

The evidence comes from our own realisations. There may be no objective external evidence, but when we identify with our own nature of pure Being then we realise that there is one Being everywhere and we are that. This is not a mental concept, it is knowledge through direct perception of this reality.

Originally Posted by Strangerthanfiction

This is how i view it too.

Okay, that means you yourself made the experience that you ARE all that exists but you can’t it prove to me because you can’t externalize your experiences. Although unsatisfying, the logic is valid.

But how can you make that experience that you ARE ALL?

That would mean that you explicitly experience that there is nothing outside you. But by my understanding one can only experience what he is but you can not experience what you are not. So how do you experience that there is no experience outside you?

Originally Posted by Siemens

Three more reasons (beside evidence for reincarnation) why I believe that the soul exists independent from matter are that I made experiences that revealed to me that I am a soul. I experienced something that was unlikely produced by my brain. For example, I can sense my chakras, which are not part of my physical body. Secondly, I make the experience that my life follows a specific plan. I observe that my life is pre-planned from a higher metaphysical perspective, which implies again that the soul exists above and independent of matter. Third, and most striking, from a mathematic perspective it is very likely that matter is a virtual simulation, this implies necessarily that our souls do exist outside matter.

That we have a Soul is not in dispute, but what the Soul actually is is another story entirely, ask a dozen different Spiritual greats and you'll get a dozen different answers. Your chakras are a part of your physical body and there's a inter-relationship bewteen your chakras and your body, they're co-dependant, essentially. If you sense them beyond the five senses that doesn't mean they're beyond the body, it means you're tapping into other forms of perception. This is what you're trying to come to terms with, I think.

I could make the case that my Life has been pre-planned but the question I would ask is what are the reasons I believe that? When I understand the reasons for believing that, then I begin to understand so much more. But going with your Life's Purpose/Soul Contracts there's plenty of evidence and people's experiences to say that there are pre-incarnation agreements. If that is the case then obviously a part of ourselves that's beyond the physical existed before our physical bodies.

Matter is emergent of consciousness, as science and much of religion will tell you. Mathematical models vary - some say there are infinite dimensions, some say tern plus two. One of the more recent is that the base structure of all form is an eight-dimensional crystalline structure. Take your pick there's plenty of them. Even if it is a simulation, here we are anyway so what's next? You made the choice to be here the same as everybody else.

Originally Posted by Siemens

Who says that metaphysical things don’t have form (in the sense of structures)?
Metaphysical things, of course, have structure.

Meta means beyond. Consciousness and therefore the Soul has no form, which is why your dreams are symbols or avatars or your/the collective consciousness.

Originally Posted by Siemens

There is a simple way to reduce misunderstandings:
If you talk about physical things call them “physical things” not “form”.

Form and physical are the same. Energy/Chakras is/are form/physical, as is solid matter. The only real different is the frequency of their vibrations - you should know that from science, quantum theory and all that. Trying to impose form onto the formless is your egic mind, not the search for understanding. It's a closed mind.

[Dargor]

Technically we are one, but not from a spiritual perception. We (as all living things) are part of nature and the universe, and therefore connected one way or another.

Though when it comes to that fancy New Age belief that we are spiritually connected, nope. There's only space for that kind of nonsense in Disneyworld.

[Siemens]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Your chakras are a part of your physical body and there's a inter-relationship bewteen your chakras and your body, they're co-dependant, essentially. If you sense them beyond the five senses that doesn't mean they're beyond the body, it means you're tapping into other forms of perception. This is what you're trying to come to terms with, I think.

This could be a possible explanation but it still would be a belief. The reason why I believe that chakras,... are not part of the physical body is the quality in which I perceive them. It’s rather the HOW than the THAT I experience them that convinces me that chakras and the soul are independent of the biological body. The experience I make is something that I think the brain/biological body can’t produce. You could argue that the brain can hallucinate everything – so why not my experience too? The answer is that the quality of my experience is so special and complex that it just isn’t likely that the brain can do such things. (You have to consider that if the brain evolved through natural selection it isn’t logic that it can compute all kinds of perceptions or hallucinations with the same likelihood.)
I know this answer is unsatisfying but I can’t externalize my experience so I can’t prove to you that there are things involved that go beyond the physical world but it is a kind of proof if you experience it for yourself.

A more objective argument for the independence of the soul from the physical body is the following: There is an at least 50%-chance, from an objective standpoint, that all we perceive as matter is just a virtual simulation. If the physical world is just a non-existing illusion it follows necessarily that the soul is independent of the body (since the body doesn’t really exist). So this argument should actually convince you. (I can reason the 50%.)

Originally Posted by Greenslade

going with your Life's Purpose/Soul Contracts there's plenty of evidence and people's experiences to say that there are pre-incarnation agreements. If that is the case then obviously a part of ourselves that's beyond the physical existed before our physical bodies.

This is exactly the point.

I made experiences that lead directly to a very specific transformation. This transformation wouldn’t have been possible if I hadn’t made precisely these experiences (or equivalent ones). Again I can’t show or prove you that I made these experiences or how these experiences had been. But if you experience such things I experienced by yourself you automatically come to the conclusion that they have to be planned form a higher, non-physical perspective. So this convinces me further that there indeed is a soul independent of my physical body.

With the signs that there is reincarnation in addition I have at least four reasons to be convinced that the soul is an independent entity. It isn’t just a belief. It is more the case that all these things together are explained best by an interpretation that involves a non-physical soul, independent of the body.
I do not say that you should believe in a “body-independent” soul too – perhaps it were uncritically if you would as long as you don’t make such experiences I made – but I do say that my experiences somehow refute your theory that there is no body-independent soul.

[Jainarayan]

The non-dual schools of Vedanta: Advaita, Viśiṣṭādvaita, Acintyabhedābheda, Śuddhādvaita, et. al. say we are individual portions of One, i.e. Brahman. Like sparks, heat, light, from a flame or the sun; water droplets or waves from the ocean. Same in quality but not in quantity. I lean towards Viśiṣṭādvaita and Acintyabhedābheda, myself.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Jainarayan

The non-dual schools of Vedanta: Advaita, Viśiṣṭādvaita, Acintyabhedābheda, Śuddhādvaita, et. al. say we are individual portions of One, i.e. Brahman. Like sparks, heat, light, from a flame or the sun; water droplets or waves from the ocean. Same in quality but not in quantity. I lean towards Viśiṣṭādvaita and Acintyabhedābheda, myself.

As do I.

The philosophy of Ramanuja and Madhavacharya pretty much shaped the whole approach to a personal relationship with the Divine as a response (backlash) to the impersonal Advaita Vedanta approach espoused by Adi Shankaracharya and others.

In fact, Shaiva Siddhanta was also born around the same time when the Nayanars of Tamil Nadu adopted the philosophy of Ramanuja through Sambandhar which ultimately gave rise to Virashaivism.

*I am too lazy to use the IAST script*

I also understand the doctrine of Viśiṣṭādvaita and Acintyabhedābheda and wrote a whole treatise on qualified monism in the non Duality forum once.

What I found was it is pretty difficult for those who love God to actually BE the object of their love simultaneously, so I stopped thinking about my whole relationship (or lack thereof) with Shiva and just went back to worshiping Him in full on Dvaita or Duality - much easier that way.

Which reminds me...

It is so nice to hear from someone who speaks "my language" for a change and I always enjoy the story of Bhakta Prahlad whenever the recitation is mentioned.

Yeah, this is from one who was actually a member of ISKCON for a few years, before Lord Shiva kinda said "back off Krishna because this one is already MINE"...long story...

[Explorer21]

UNITY AND ONENESS

The truth of life is in unity. The illusion is separatism. If a society views itself as a separate unit, it is living in a state of illusion. Humanity tends to build on separatism and duality.

People think of themselves as separate families living in separate neighborhoods, states, nations and countries which comprise a separate planet called Earth. They believe the Earth is the only inhabited planet in the cosmos, their nation is the most advanced in the world, their state is the finest in the nation, and their family is the best one in the state.

Humans see themselves as separate from God/Goddess, to the extent that they think He/She will not even talk to them. People experience their Oneness with the Creator, but won't allow themselves to believe it. This means that they are separate from one another and from their own inner truth.

[Shivani Devi]

My personal opinion?

On the level of the superficial, of the observable, perceivable universe, we ARE all separate! We are, in the actuality of structural existence "quantum units of consciousness" which play our unique part in the function of the universe like cogs in a well-oiled machine.

Each of us has a part to play, a role to fulfill and a job to do and identification with ourselves in separation is not erroneous, however it is only half of the story, just like the identification of unity in Non-Dual awareness is only half the story as well.

The essence of Acintyabhedābheda denotes the concept of "Unity in Diversity" however, the diverse and the separation must exist for the unification to occur. (I am God, You are God, but I am not You).

It is human nature to relate to and associate with other members of the species and comparisons are being constantly made on the level of material reality - "what do you do for a living?" "How many children do you have?" "What part of the state do you live in?" "What sports team do you follow?" "Do you have any pets?" People ask such questions to begin conversations because they don't know how to do so otherwise. Constantly having to answer such questions is what forges our separate identity to start with.

On a deeper level, at the level of soul/spirit we are all connected, being that we are all of the sacred, Divine essence of the pervasive Consciousness which animates the individual consciousness...but not many people on earth ever get far enough to experientially realise this...I mean they may KNOW it from books they have read and from lectures they have attended...from holy people they have spoken to and such...they may BELIEVE it because it makes sense to them or it is a beautiful ideal they would like to incorporate into their being..but very few have actually felt it in their heart and let it transform them in a massive way.

Besides which, if anybody asks you those aforementioned questions, you would not say "who are YOU to ask?" or "look inside yourself to find the answer" or "I am whoever you want me to be?" Isn't it?

They will just say you are crazy and run a mile and you will say "how can that person be so mean?"

Oh look, there is a separation between "crazy person" and "mean person" now. =)

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

My personal opinion?

On the level of the superficial, of the observable, perceivable universe, we ARE all separate! We are, in the actuality of structural existence "quantum units of consciousness" which play our unique part in the function of the universe like cogs in a well-oiled machine.

Each of us has a part to play, a role to fulfill and a job to do and identification with ourselves in separation is not erroneous, however it is only half of the story, just like the identification of unity in Non-Dual awareness is only half the story as well.

The essence of Acintyabhedābheda denotes the concept of "Unity in Diversity" however, the diverse and the separation must exist for the unification to occur. (I am God, You are God, but I am not You).

It is human nature to relate to and associate with other members of the species and comparisons are being constantly made on the level of material reality - "what do you do for a living?" "How many children do you have?" "What part of the state do you live in?" "What sports team do you follow?" "Do you have any pets?" People ask such questions to begin conversations because they don't know how to do so otherwise. Constantly having to answer such questions is what forges our separate identity to start with.

On a deeper level, at the level of soul/spirit we are all connected, being that we are all of the sacred, Divine essence of the pervasive Consciousness which animates the individual consciousness...but not many people on earth ever get far enough to experientially realise this...I mean they may KNOW it from books they have read and from lectures they have attended...from holy people they have spoken to and such...they may BELIEVE it because it makes sense to them or it is a beautiful ideal they would like to incorporate into their being..but very few have actually felt it in their heart and let it transform them in a massive way.

Thank you for your very perceptive, generous and spot on, post SD.

but very few have actually felt it in their heart and let it transform them in a massive way.

I have experienced it but in retrospect it was too short a time. Why?

Namaste,

JL

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by janielee

Thank you for your very perceptive, generous and spot on, post SD.

but very few have actually felt it in their heart and let it transform them in a massive way.

I have experienced it but in retrospect it was too short a time. Why?

Namaste,

JL

Thank you my love.

The universe provides us with many opportunities to realise our place within it, but often we are either too busy or too preoccupied to notice them all.

Occasionally we may set aside our obligations and expectations to allow this "Unfolding into Spirit" and for a short while, experience the unity of being within the awareness itself.

However, the memory of it tends to be rather transient within the confined space of this three dimensional reality, as soon as the responsibilities of life and living overwhelm us once more.

When more time is set aside for meditation, mindfulness and reflection and the opportunities the universe provides are acknowledged to a much greater extent, then the awareness and experiences of the state of transcendence becomes more easily grounded into the 3D reality itself and we live our lives through the experience, as "first nature" becomes "second nature".

In Raja Yoga, this is known as "Sahaja Samadhi".