A BIG warning for all of you...

In this thread, I sometimes speak as if this is actually the case (in truth), but this is simply a working understanding...not a belief. I apologize ahead of time if I sully your view/fantasy of certain spiritual matters, but it's time these things are analysed with more pragmatism.

I feel like I have stumbled across something I should not have, as I seem to be getting night terrors for the first time in my life. This is likely going to sound very controversial, but I care enough about every human on this board (and this planet) to explain the possible situation anyway. This may not apply to all forms of spiritual experience, but only of the control-based/deceptive variety.

Spiritual Entities:

• Humans cannot readily grasp true understanding of what spiritual forces are because the way they function in a very counter-intuitive way. As far as I can tell, you can only know them through the influence they have on your mind, and finding an explanation for what they are has proven to be very difficult for me.

• Although there may be very rare exceptions, they do not reveal their appearance or presence in ordinarily physically tangible ways because their influence is detected separately from the 5 senses. They do not change/shift appearance in the way it is popularly believed. Spiritual forces create illusions in one's mind; imagery, sounds, ideas, emotions, and even the false reality we call "the astral". The impressions they generate - for instance, a monster, a friendly human-like being, alien, entity of light, ect...It is not their true nature. They shift the appearance of the illusions they create and not the actual form they inhabit. They do this with the perceived environment as well. So unless you're willing to admit that your "spiritual senses" are just as limited as your physical, is there any reason for such limited representations...ie: a room, or normal human figure?

• As humans, we are very easily deceived because of how we are conditioned to respond to the world around us...It does not work the same way here. Imagine an astral/dream scenario where one is being chased by a negative being. We struggle to permanently lose the (illusory) being that is chasing us. We treat our fear, our need to escape, the environment, and our aggressor as being separated concepts when they're actually not (because they're being generated by the same thing) and so we cannot overcome it in a way that is possible in the physical... It's the entire influence itself that needs to be dealt with because these (seemingly separate) impressions are actually compounded and controlled. It takes full advantage of how we are conditioned to respond. I'd imagine a single influence can easily dish out the illusion of multiple beings with different personas.

Another example would be seeing a dead relative when leaving your body...Why wouldn't it be your relative? The image and feeling seems to be enough "proof" for people, yet some admit to knowing that beings can change shape in that realm. How can you discern what is genuine? As far as I can tell, it is not possible to directly contact deceased human beings. These "spirits" seem to know the thoughts of humans very intimately, and so they can easily give a false representation.

With dreams/Astral Projection... It is not yet recognized or fully understood by science in any of its departments of study. I've been purposefully leaving myself open to influences in order to learn how it interacts with our minds.

Thought-forms:

• These are what we can be identified as elements from our own lives in our "spiritual" experiences. Many modernists/theosophists have attributed this to a phenomenon called "thought-form". I have strong reason to think that it's not actually thought-forms that are being used as an illusion, but some other tool/form that is being used (and being created) based on our own thought-forms. In other words, being inspired by our thoughts...thus why we recognize things in interference that we experience in our own lives. I'm not sure how it can be concluded that it is thought-form that is being used. To me, it doesn't seem like it is the same, but I could be wrong. I prefer to use to the term "meta-abstractions" rather than "thought-form complexes" even though they imply very similar things.

• In a rough sense, there seems to be a lot of loose associations made between certain ideas. We call this "symbolism". This goes for archetypes as well that seem to be used frequently, which are only associated with delusional concepts, and so our subjectivity and personal views seem be of strong influence.

• Supported behaviours don't seem to genuinely convey love, altruism, or any of the popular ideas of what is considered "good" in any way that is non ego-supportive or non-subversive. There are different versions of love, and it seems to only support certain types, such as bliss or infatuation, and other forms of "positive" emotion humans don't ordinarily feel which can be linked to forms of self-centeredness. These ideas/emotions probably support the source of the interference in some way or another (psychic vampirism could be an explanation).



Why we are receptive:

I'm still trying to develop a theory for this. There is undoubtedly changes in brain activity that accompanies spiritual/religious experiences, but there are clear differences between what a Buddhist monk is doing during their meditation, someone entering a trance to "leave their body" (it's likely they aren't), someone receiving the holy spirit, or having an NDE. If there is brain activity, this has to be the result of something and is most likely a physical cause - but if it is, it would have to work on a very subtle level. I'd imagine there is something that connects our awareness to our physical brain which uses the same connections to to perceive these influences, and can be likened to a 6th sense of some kind which opens a gateway. When you do certain types of meditation or go to sleep, these connections are opened up. It seems similar to how brain synapses work. If this is true, this can explain the presence of EM fields and the sensations of vibrations, tingles, buzzing in the ears, because it may be the result of neurological interference and not spiritual energy of any kind.

* These entities/forces seem to be extremely controlling and try to influence the mind in very underhanded ways. They seem to have the ability to read memories and can also understand how people learn/respond to certain things, how we recognize patterns, what we experience during our day, the list goes on... Their understanding can be extremely personal*

I've been learning to control my mind much better and can even manipulate these illusions to a limited extent as they seem to follow certain predictable patterns when confronted with certain thoughts/emotions...like a cat with a ball of yarn.

--- Anyway, that's all I can think of mentioning at the moment. I'm pretty tired right now and I might add more later. I'd be appreciative if you would leave comments and opinons...Remember, this is not a belief of mine, but only a working understanding (which is subject to change). Constructive criticism may include objective reasons/causes for why these notions may be incorrect.

Whilst I understand that you are trying to protect people here, I do find the title of this thread alarmist and misguided. You make a huge assumption that "spiritual forces" are from one source or all the same. I very much doubt this.

I see that you have had many negative experiences. As am sure you know, it is much easier to access the lower spirits/energies than the higher ones. Fear seems to be a feature of these experiences.

Are you receptive to acknowledging that there are higher spiritual forces/energies? Love is the feeling most often associated from people experiencing this access.

Originally Posted by amy green

Whilst I understand that you are trying to protect people here, I do find the title of this thread alarmist and misguided. You make a huge assumption that "spiritual forces" are from one source or all the same. I very much doubt this.

I see that you have had many negative experiences. As am sure you know, it is much easier to access the lower spirits/energies than the higher ones. Fear seems to be a feature of these experiences.

Are you receptive to acknowledging that there are higher spiritual forces/energies? Love is the feeling most often associated from people experiencing this access.

Hi. "This may not apply to all forms of spiritual experience, but only of the control-based/deceptive variety.", and to add to that, usually what is considered "negative", so no I am not placing all experiences under this category (and I hope that's not true). I wouldn't say I am being an alarmist because many people are opening themselves up and finding themselves in a lot of trouble without understanding what they may be getting into.

This is a postulation and although it may not be complete, it seems to explain it in an adequate way. There are some things I am still undecided on but I can't find a reason for why this system of understanding doesn't work.

Thanks earthatic - yes, I understand that this is a work-in-progress for you and sorry for overlooking what you stipulated.

I also share your concern that others may be niaively opening themselves up to that which they may well become vulnerable too. I cite myself as an example of this. I don't have a guide but once did a visualisation exercise to find my guide. As the visualisation progressed, I became uneasy and fearful. I didn't like the energy I was contacting and aborted the exercise. I have subsequently learnt that you should do a protective exercise first, before embarking on contacting a guide. Anyway, it has put me off further guide explorations. The way I see it, if I am meant to be in contact with a guide, they will find me first. This arrangement would feel more apt/natural to me.

[Horse]

You say that they can be manipulated by controlling your thought processes in such a way that they jump on the bait you lay for them. Would they not know that you are doing this? If this is true, then they are clearly not so omniscient and intelligent.

Originally Posted by Barnacle

You say that they can be manipulated by controlling your thought processes in such a way that they jump on the bait you lay for them. Would they not know that you are doing this? If this is true, then they are clearly not so omniscient and intelligent.

It's difficult to explain, but I'll try..

Their (or it's) true intellect is hidden from us, while ours doesn't seem to be hidden from them. Our gross, bloated thoughts and emotions seem to be more noticeable, but these thoughts can be controlled in a way similar to how we control our own body language and speech. There is something behind our own body language and speech that is within our control, just as there is something behind our own thoughts and emotions that we can control...yet most people fail to realize this and react to things out instinct or habit.

Their (jinn, spirits, ect) method of creating illusion and instilling thoughts and emotions is like our version of body language with a hidden intent. It's meant to communicate to others, or affect them in some way (with a hidden purpose). I hope that makes sense.

[mintkiss]

I think a big part of the reason why many astral projection books, or at least the ones I personally own (and many articles that are easy to come across) do not often share many details about the seedy, less than savory, possibly even dangerous occurrences of astral projection is to protect you. Your state of mind is highly important. Ignorance can be bliss for some beginners. I suppose in some way it can even protect some people. Many books simply want you to remain positive, loving, at a high level and don't even mention negativity to avoid planting anything in your mind. If your mind does not have it in its perception to even accept lower levels of energy, there's a good chance it won't. Is that chance okay? Should others really gamble on it? That's a tricky question even though some authors I'm sure have the best intentions.

There's also the assumption people know how to, or have protected themselves in some way or another spiritually. I don't want to get any negativity in anyone's minds though. I will say if you plan to astrally travel I suggest you look into protecting yourself, cleansing, and getting good at it. You may attract things, and you may need to learn how to fend for yourself. It's part of the reason I stopped trying to keep APing and put my focus into meditation. It's simply easier for me personally at the time being. I may try to AP again in the future, when my circumstances differ to an atmosphere that would facilitate the experience more lovingly.

"leave their body" (it's likely they aren't)-- A lot of people here would disagree there ;)

I try to keep in mind our own perceptions and experiences shape our reality. My reality is not yours and yours is not necessarily mine. It's interesting when you consider you kind of live in your own little world....and so does everybody else. It's warming to consider most people(I hope) agree more than they disagree but everyone's personal truths may be a little different. Kind of like how everyone sees/imagines(or doesn't) about what God(or whatever it is, you call it) looks like. I have a lingering theory thats why Islam strictly prohibits images of their God because everyone's idea of it in their own minds is likley very different person to person.

That's my random thoughts on some of your points. I also agree the title is kinda misleading.

Originally Posted by mintkiss

I think a big part of the reason why many astral projection books, or at least the ones I personally own (and many articles that are easy to come across) do not often share many details about the seedy, less than savory, possibly even dangerous occurrences of astral projection is to protect you. Your state of mind is highly important. Ignorance can be bliss for some beginners. I suppose in some way it can even protect some people. Many books simply want you to remain positive, loving, at a high level and don't even mention negativity to avoid planting anything in your mind. If your mind does not have it in its perception to even accept lower levels of energy, there's a good chance it won't. Is that chance okay? Should others really gamble on it? That's a tricky question even though some authors I'm sure have the best intentions.

There's also the assumption people know how to, or have protected themselves in some way or another spiritually. I don't want to get any negativity in anyone's minds though. I will say if you plan to astrally travel I suggest you look into protecting yourself, cleansing, and getting good at it. You may attract things, and you may need to learn how to fend for yourself. It's part of the reason I stopped trying to keep APing and put my focus into meditation. It's simply easier for me personally at the time being. I may try to AP again in the future, when my circumstances differ to an atmosphere that would facilitate the experience more lovingly.

"leave their body" (it's likely they aren't)-- A lot of people here would disagree there ;)

I try to keep in mind our own perceptions and experiences shape our reality. My reality is not yours and yours is not necessarily mine. It's interesting when you consider you kind of live in your own little world....and so does everybody else. It's warming to consider most people(I hope) agree more than they disagree but everyone's personal truths may be a little different. Kind of like how everyone sees/imagines(or doesn't) about what God(or whatever it is, you call it) looks like. I have a lingering theory thats why Islam strictly prohibits images of their God because everyone's idea of it in their own minds is likley very different person to person.

That's my random thoughts on some of your points. I also agree the title is kinda misleading.

It was only misleading if you had the wrong expectations. The title is not inaccurate, nor was it my intention to mislead, although I had abandoned a certain structure (that I had originally planned) in order to make the post more concise. The statements in *bold* are to be strongly noted because of their plausibility (and it's to be taken as a big warning), as well as everything else that was said.

When it comes to emotional cleansing, protection rituals...I'm not exactly sure how they work. For me, it was as if I was treating the symptoms instead of the cause, if you know what I mean.

"I have a lingering theory thats why Islam strictly prohibits images of their God because everyone's idea of it in their own minds is likley very different person to person. "

Is it to protect their own subjectivity?? -- or is it to not get them concerned with certain notions that would otherwise bring a false belief? They certainly made descriptions of "Light", "fiery swords", "Ascension from the sky" and things like that can easily create images in a person's mind.
I'm pretty sure that it's not the purpose of the Islamic faith to encourage people to create their own ideas of what/who "Allah" is. I find this a bit confusing...

[Xan]

"I have a lingering theory thats why Islam strictly prohibits images of their God because everyone's idea of it in their own minds is likley very different person to person. "

It's because the ultimate God has no image, being formless and infinite. In Hinduism this is called Brahman.


Xan

Originally Posted by Xan

"I have a lingering theory thats why Islam strictly prohibits images of their God because everyone's idea of it in their own minds is likley very different person to person. "

It's because the ultimate God has no image, being formless and infinite. In Hinduism this is called Brahman.


Xan

The description of "Allah" in the Islamic tradition is (in many ways) different than the concept of Brahman. I think it's a little iffy to assume that they're two sides of the same coin.