I knew culture and others affect us, but dang.

[TheGreenQueen]

I asked this question a while ago http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ad.php?t=99326

So, I had an earworm stuck in my head

https://youtu.be/xwkhJhW2aUs

As someone on the asexual spectrum, the line

pins and needles on my tongue

intrigued me because (a) I'd never had a feeling like that (b) I didn't remember hearing anything so specifically laying out a sensation that wasn't wrapped in some sort of metaphor, and (c) it seemed to stand out for some other reason of other descriptions that are repetitive/predictable.

So after it relentlessly replaying in my mind for a few weeks (various extraction attempts were made, to little avail), my mouth actually produced said sensation.

My defenses went shooting up after that, and I actively looked for other songs to replace it, ones that I approved of.

See, I've long thought that the culture surrounding romance is toxic. For example, I'm so used to feeling numb referring to not having a lover. Sounds like you haven't tapped into the joy of living, without something to 'jump start' you. A common one is "I can't live without you." Well, obviously you could, and isn't repeating this type of belief priming people for worse pain when relationships end?

I remember another line in a song, If you ever leave me baby. Leave some morphine at my door

I wrote a poem a while ago in response to that general theme,

When you fall in love and it falls apart
I hope you have more love in your heart
And I hope it’s there
‘Cause of what you shared
I don’t know if it makes sense
So many just want revenge or recompense

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

[quote=TheGreenQueenSee, I've long thought that the culture surrounding romance is toxic.[/QUOTE]

TheGreenQueenSee,

One could say that the culture surrounding romance(love) exerts a strong gravitational pull. We can view that force of gravity as being the pull of the ego. The ego wishes to possess.....to focus itself on the self.

Essentially, love in its purest form is a shared experience. This shared experience is made possible by the suspension of the ego. We see only the good in others, we find trust in sharing our deepest feelings without concern of rejection, etc. We visualize ourselves as one........a state of non-duality. Christians define God as love. God being one that will always share and can be shared with. God is seen as calling one to the world of non-duality and its world of freedom(freedom of sharing, accepting, not being condemned, etc.)

Ego exerts the power of separation.....enticing us to take away the freedom of others.....urging us to possess others and attempting to reform them in the image of ourselves. This is the toxicity that kills.

Originally Posted by TheGreenQueen

See, I've long thought that the culture surrounding romance is toxic. For example, I'm so used to feeling numb referring to not having a lover. Sounds like you haven't tapped into the joy of living, without something to 'jump start' you. A common one is "I can't live without you." Well, obviously you could, and isn't repeating this type of belief priming people for worse pain when relationships end?

I think you're right. It goes deep into the culture and the way sex is swathed in taboo, legitimised through relationships - post-Victorian stuff and the notions of ownership that emerge through that obsolescent institution called marriage. "To have and to hold 'til death do us part," stuff which in the Catholic church really is 'til death doth them part. Or the Islamic stuff where a woman at every age is the property of a man... (to me, that's slavery, just as an aside).

But most of this is about sexual intercourse which, though the way society has segregated sex from spirituality, tensions arise in adolescents that turn sexual urges into desires, yearning (without knowing what it's about) so it becomes "love". "I love you," you hear people say, when they know neither themselves nor the focus of their ardour! The more adult form of love that comes from being with someone for long time has to be able to flourish without sex or at least when its fire dies down. The earlier days of banging (if you'll excuse the crudity) could die out, whereon a lot of (let's-call-it) "false love," (just using the word to legitimse sexual desire) ends in divorces and broken relationships because there's nothing beyond that.


...

The lyrics of this song came to mind:

"Why must you always try to make me over
Take me as I am or let me go
White lilies never grow on stalks of clover
Take me as I am or let me go
You're trying to reshape me like your old love
In the image of the one
You used to know
But I won't be a stand in for an old love
Take me as I am or let me go
You're trying to reshape me like your old love
In the image of the one
You used to know
But I won't be a stand in for an old love
Take me as I am or let me go"

Originally Posted by TheGreenQueen

I asked this question a while ago http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ad.php?t=99326

So, I had an earworm stuck in my head

https://youtu.be/xwkhJhW2aUs

As someone on the asexual spectrum, the line

pins and needles on my tongue

intrigued me because (a) I'd never had a feeling like that (b) I didn't remember hearing anything so specifically laying out a sensation that wasn't wrapped in some sort of metaphor, and (c) it seemed to stand out for some other reason of other descriptions that are repetitive/predictable.

So after it relentlessly replaying in my mind for a few weeks (various extraction attempts were made, to little avail), my mouth actually produced said sensation.

My defenses went shooting up after that, and I actively looked for other songs to replace it, ones that I approved of.

See, I've long thought that the culture surrounding romance is toxic. For example, I'm so used to feeling numb referring to not having a lover. Sounds like you haven't tapped into the joy of living, without something to 'jump start' you. A common one is "I can't live without you." Well, obviously you could, and isn't repeating this type of belief priming people for worse pain when relationships end?

I remember another line in a song, If you ever leave me baby. Leave some morphine at my door

I wrote a poem a while ago in response to that general theme,

When you fall in love and it falls apart
I hope you have more love in your heart
And I hope it’s there
‘Cause of what you shared
I don’t know if it makes sense
So many just want revenge or recompense

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

It began with Elvis. Prior to him bursting onto the scene youth had no culture of its own, it was given to them by the establishment - parents, society - who modelled youth culture according to their own Victorian ideals of children should be seen and not heard. Elvis changed all that and gave them rebellion and something that reflected what they really felt inside. Music is about passion and its expression, and the changing musical eras brought reflections of popular culture in what the music was reflecting. This is what's being reflected in today's musical culture, the issues that are important in the Lives of youth. It's a throw-away society and Love, relationships and hearts are thrown away. It's about feelings and passions that know of no logic other than their own and certainly doesn't allow for clinical analysis or even common sense. It doesn't always prime anyone for anything, no doubt the people that buy those tracks have already felt that way or are feeling it.

While that not might seem as very Spiritual to some people, actually it is because music and Spirituality have so many parallels that most wouldn't accept. Spirituality is what the people who believe in it say it is and some are just as passionate about it as others are with music. It's surprising how much Spirituality is humanity in a different context, so if we need to understand Spirituality we need to understand ourselves a little better first. If you're going to look at the 'big picture' then look at the whole picture.

[TheGreenQueen]

I once saw an article titled "Is marriage a selfish instituion?" that challenged the notion of married people being 'pillars of the community.' It found indeed, that singles did more for more people than those focused on the one person.

Someone in my Holistic Learning group said that "Romance is the recognition of Oneness in another" with the cynical tagline, in those that don't have the 'Awareness' to experience it with multiple people, which has been papered over with various cultural expectations.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

It began with Elvis. Prior to him bursting onto the scene youth had no culture of its own, it was given to them by the establishment - parents, society - who modelled youth culture according to their own Victorian ideals of children should be seen and not heard. Elvis changed all that and gave them rebellion and something that reflected what they really felt inside. Music is about passion and its expression, and the changing musical eras brought reflections of popular culture in what the music was reflecting. This is what's being reflected in today's musical culture, the issues that are important in the Lives of youth. It's a throw-away society and Love, relationships and hearts are thrown away. It's about feelings and passions that know of no logic other than their own and certainly doesn't allow for clinical analysis or even common sense. It doesn't always prime anyone for anything, no doubt the people that buy those tracks have already felt that way or are feeling it.

While that not might seem as very Spiritual to some people, actually it is because music and Spirituality have so many parallels that most wouldn't accept. Spirituality is what the people who believe in it say it is and some are just as passionate about it as others are with music. It's surprising how much Spirituality is humanity in a different context, so if we need to understand Spirituality we need to understand ourselves a little better first. If you're going to look at the 'big picture' then look at the whole picture.

People do worship celebrities like gods. Haha.

No but seriously, music is a powerful and influential force. All the more reason for me to carefully screen what enters my consciousness.

(I posted a while ago in several places how my own made-up music with words helped with affirmations, dream lucidity, etc.)

If spirituality is just what people say it is, then doesn't it lose meaning? Anyone could claim anything and you could not say otherwise. No, there is a certain collection of concepts that spirituality usually entails. Throwing away your fellow human beings like trash (or not looking out for your own wellbeing, for that matter) isn't one of them.

As for the 'big picture' I personally think that this rebel attitude has gone way too far (and that's not because I'm an adult, I've thought this since I was around 10 years old) in that it is creating large gaps among the generations. Kids are seeing older people not as sources of wisdom, but strictly (and stereo-typically) as authority to rise up against. "Rebel without a cause" comes to mind.

Meanwhile, the elderly, cut off from the mainstream of society, languish in retirement homes or by themselves, hoping someone will come to visit every once in a while. This is not a unified society. This is not love, or acceptance, or merely showing an identity. This is just more division and splintering.

Originally Posted by TheGreenQueen

I once saw an article titled "Is marriage a selfish instituion?" that challenged the notion of married people being 'pillars of the community.' It found indeed, that singles did more for more people than those focused on the one person.

Someone in my Holistic Learning group said that "Romance is the recognition of Oneness in another" with the cynical tagline, in those that don't have the 'Awareness' to experience it with multiple people, which has been papered over with various cultural expectations.

That's understandable, a cynical perspective might be that single people are looking for something to fill their time with.

Some people don't want to experience it with other people and there are cultural considerations there too.

Originally Posted by TheGreenQueen

People do worship celebrities like gods. Haha.

No but seriously, music is a powerful and influential force. All the more reason for me to carefully screen what enters my consciousness.

(I posted a while ago in several places how my own made-up music with words helped with affirmations, dream lucidity, etc.)

If spirituality is just what people say it is, then doesn't it lose meaning? Anyone could claim anything and you could not say otherwise. No, there is a certain collection of concepts that spirituality usually entails. Throwing away your fellow human beings like trash (or not looking out for your own wellbeing, for that matter) isn't one of them.

As for the 'big picture' I personally think that this rebel attitude has gone way too far (and that's not because I'm an adult, I've thought this since I was around 10 years old) in that it is creating large gaps among the generations. Kids are seeing older people not as sources of wisdom, but strictly (and stereo-typically) as authority to rise up against. "Rebel without a cause" comes to mind.

Meanwhile, the elderly, cut off from the mainstream of society, languish in retirement homes or by themselves, hoping someone will come to visit every once in a while. This is not a unified society. This is not love, or acceptance, or merely showing an identity. This is just more division and splintering.

Just the same as Spiritual people worship their gurus and often for the same reasons. Underneath it all people having icons of some kind to look to is a pretty human trait.

You're in a Holistic Learning Class and you're going to screen what's in your consciousness? Curious. Music and romance is the consciousness of the masses and when you understand them better you understand your fellow human beings better. You might even find some similarities that surprise you. Take David Bowie for instance, he was into all kinds of Spirituality that comes through in the lyrics of his songs and he was into a few things that are far and way from the nainstream. In hos last album he was exploring death and coming back from it.

Spiritual people often have trouble dealing with non-Spiritual people because they've alienated themselves from them. I've seen posts where they can't deal with their families because they're Spiritual or they don't want to talk about the mainstream culture so they have nothing in common. And they are so-called 'Spiritual' people after all, as soon as they say the wards they're different, but not so different as those Christians that believe they're going to get a seat booked in heaven because they go to church on Sunday. You'd be surprised how much human nature there is in Spirituality. In that respect those Spiritual people can't even communicate at a basic level because of a belief system. Not sure that's Spirituality. Not everyone wants to talk about Spirituality the same way as not everyone wants to talk about monster trucks of football. If so-called Spiritual people are having problems with relationships and family that's not because of their Spirituality, it's because of them as dysfunctional people who have cut themselves off from the 'mundanes'. Referring to someone as 'mundane' is disrespectful and nothing more than snobbery and egotistical. Someone calling themselves Spiritual makes them non-Spiritual. Isn't there enough separation caused by belief systems?

Yes the 'bigger picture' of music is creating generation gaps but part of that is parents who want their kids to conform to their ways, which is going back to Elvis. Rebellion is a part of growing up, it should be because it's a way of expressing what's inside you. It was for me anyway. It's a way for youngsters to find their own identities and not become parent clones. Every parent should embrace the rebellion and work with it because the kids get it out of their system and respect their parents more. Rebellion is experiencing their own world for themselves. I was a 'Rebel without a cause' but it's only when you experience something that you really understand it. The rebellion was in my nature anyway and I needed to find my own way through Life. I needed to Live my Life in my own terms and being honest I'm glad I did. I still Live that way and it comes through in my Spirituality but this gives me something far more than Spiritual people who set themselves apart.

I've learned to Live my Life holistically. my Spirituality translates into those 'mundane realms'.

What you're seeing now in society at large is a throw-back from the days of Flower Power. The peace and love, man went too far and so much was thrown away or forgotten in the process. While parents were high on drugs they didn't teach their kids right from wrong and after a generation or two those same kids have become parents themselves. The largest factor though is the lack of consequences, kids can do pretty much what they like because they're invulnerable.

[TheGreenQueen]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

That's understandable, a cynical perspective might be that single people are looking for something to fill their time with.

Single people do everything coupled people do, besides coupling. The world and its people are pretty darn interesting, so. Ya know.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You're in a Holistic Learning Class and you're going to screen what's in your consciousness? Curious.

Um, yeah. Do you usually just let people say things to you and accept it without critically thinking about it? Now extend that to everything that can influence you- and as we just established, music is powerful.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Music and romance is the consciousness of the masses and when you understand them better you understand your fellow human beings better. You might even find some similarities that surprise you.

I understand just fine. And even if I didn't, I don't have to to be sympathetic.

I'll feel bad for the ballet dancer that was culturally seduced into destroying their feet, the football player that blew out his knee, the fundamentalists who are damaged by their religion, but I still get to criticize the ideas that wreaked all this havoc.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

In that respect those Spiritual people can't even communicate at a basic level because of a belief system. Not sure that's Spirituality.

It is perhaps a difficult spirituality, but if they are looking for people who jive with them better, and will help them toward self-betterment and self-realization, not so sure I see the problem.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Referring to someone as 'mundane' is disrespectful and nothing more than snobbery and egotistical. Someone calling themselves Spiritual makes them non-Spiritual. Isn't there enough separation caused by belief systems?

Well yes, that's problematic.

But again, you're simply proving my point, that not everything that is called "spiritual" is necessarily working for the common good. Everyone is going to use concepts differently, but that does not mean that you can't criticize them on your own grounds, as you are doing right now.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Yes the 'bigger picture' of music is creating generation gaps but part of that is parents who want their kids to conform to their ways, which is going back to Elvis. Rebellion is a part of growing up, it should be because it's a way of expressing what's inside you.

Except when the conformation pressure is blown out of proportion. There are plenty of good parents, who are not authoritarian, who still lose their kids to the assumption you're making. I have very different politics than my parents. But did I ever feel I needed to "rebel"? No, we were all mature and respectful of each other. Like everyone should be when dealing with beliefs.

Usually you only get out of a relationship what you put in.

Aggression is not a necessary part of adolescence any more than depression is. (And by the way, "adolescence" as a concept didn't even really exist until around the 1950s)

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I've learned to Live my Life holistically. my Spirituality translates into those 'mundane realms'.

Don't know what that means exactly, but as far as I'm concerned the Divine is in every little thing, with some caveats to materialism and hedonism.

Every person has a spark in them, but it's pretty easy to tell who's fanned the spark, as well as who hasn't uncovered it. Does that mean I'll look down on them? No, but I also would prefer different company if given the choice. And you think that is bad?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

What you're seeing now in society at large is a throw-back from the days of Flower Power. The peace and love, man went too far and so much was thrown away or forgotten in the process. While parents were high on drugs they didn't teach their kids right from wrong and after a generation or two those same kids have become parents themselves. The largest factor though is the lack of consequences, kids can do pretty much what they like because they're invulnerable.

So are you about rebellion or not? Because you're pointing out that those parents are essentially rebels who got addicted to the rebellion and never climbed back out.

Kids are, yes, essentially in a bubble away from society. They don't get to own anything until 18, they have lots of free time on their hands, are taught things in school that have little relevance to their lives in a way that bores them. They are living life without a purpose. Sad, really.

Originally Posted by TheGreenQueen

Single people do everything coupled people do, besides coupling. The world and its people are pretty darn interesting, so. Ya know.

Can't fault you on that one.

Originally Posted by TheGreenQueen

Um, yeah. Do you usually just let people say things to you and accept it without critically thinking about it? Now extend that to everything that can influence you- and as we just established, music is powerful.

It depends on the moment I guess. I tend to run with my intuition and curiousity sometimes and this was one of those times to just let the Universe unfold as it will. The Universe doesn't do critical thinking.

Originally Posted by TheGreenQueen

I understand just fine. And even if I didn't, I don't have to to be sympathetic.

I'll feel bad for the ballet dancer that was culturally seduced into destroying their feet, the football player that blew out his knee, the fundamentalists who are damaged by their religion, but I still get to criticize the ideas that wreaked all this havoc.

We all make our choices and as the saying goes, "We're all prostitutes for something."

Originally Posted by TheGreenQueen

It is perhaps a difficult spirituality, but if they are looking for people who jive with them better, and will help them toward self-betterment and self-realization, not so sure I see the problem.

It's all in the perspective I suppose. 'Non-Spiritual' people do the same things but in a different context, unless there's a better and more noble self-betterment and self-realistation. Or are we talking about realising Self? That's a very different kettle of fish.

Originally Posted by TheGreenQueen

Well yes, that's problematic.

But again, you're simply proving my point, that not everything that is called "spiritual" is necessarily working for the common good. Everyone is going to use concepts differently, but that does not mean that you can't criticize them on your own grounds, as you are doing right now.

Guess I'm human after all and haven't reached the lofty heights but I;m fine with that. My Life isn't a concept.

Originally Posted by TheGreenQueen

Except when the conformation pressure is blown out of proportion. There are plenty of good parents, who are not authoritarian, who still lose their kids to the assumption you're making. I have very different politics than my parents. But did I ever feel I needed to "rebel"? No, we were all mature and respectful of each other. Like everyone should be when dealing with beliefs.

Usually you only get out of a relationship what you put in.

Aggression is not a necessary part of adolescence any more than depression is. (And by the way, "adolescence" as a concept didn't even really exist until around the 1950s)

Most kids rebel in some way or another, it's all a part of them finding their own identities as individuals. Some parents will understand that while others will want their kids to conform. Often the generation gap is useful because kids experience their own way because they learn the most from that. Rebellion isn't always mass hysteria, sometimes it's a lot more subtle than that. Perhaps you never needed to rebel but like so many others I did. It didn't stop me being respectful but there were times when I needed to find my own way.

Originally Posted by TheGreenQueen

Don't know what that means exactly, but as far as I'm concerned the Divine is in every little thing, with some caveats to materialism and hedonism.

Every person has a spark in them, but it's pretty easy to tell who's fanned the spark, as well as who hasn't uncovered it. Does that mean I'll look down on them? No, but I also would prefer different company if given the choice. And you think that is bad?

To put it simply, I don't call myself Spiritual any more. Once upon a time perhaps but I've come out the other side. To me all of existence is 'Spiritual' - including materialism and hedonism. There are some experiences Spirit simply can't have because of its very nature, and regardless of how we choose to perceive anything at the end of the day Spirit has chosen to experience it. Who am I to say differently? Sometimes acceptance brings understanding.

And preferring different company is fine, it's understandable but I tend to make myself comfortable in the circumstances as much as possible.

Originally Posted by TheGreenQueen

So are you about rebellion or not? Because you're pointing out that those parents are essentially rebels who got addicted to the rebellion and never climbed back out. Kids are, yes, essentially in a bubble away from society. They don't get to own anything until 18, they have lots of free time on their hands, are taught things in school that have little relevance to their lives in a way that bores them. They are living life without a purpose. Sad, really.

Sometimes yes, I am about rebellion and I'm being a rebellious teenager now - metaphorically speaking. I feel I need change and feel I am changing and rebellion is my way of 'flushing out' what has come before. Music and rebellion brought about energetic changes, as did my first real foray into Spirituality. Some might call it s aeries of 'Awakenings' and 'dark nights of the Soul' but I just embrace it differently.

Some of those parents do seem to be rebels, or at least non-conformists to society and sometimes they pass that onto their kids. They didn't learn simple manners or rules of any kind and they allow the same thing for their kids.

Society is changing and not often to the 'good' but there are underlying currents at work. Sometimes Spiritual people are bubbles apart from society so taking away the context there's little difference really. The connections to ourselves and others are becoming more tenuous and who knows where this will lead. Only time will tell.