Lucifer

Originally Posted by Barbara With

...it is only through human decisions that evil can be avoided or irradicated...

Nicely said

1). The myth is a way to explain the problem of evil in the world, whether it be evil done by nature, such as natural disasters, or evil done by people, either physical or moral evil.

The whole story of Lucifer seems incredibly complex to serve such a simple purpose. :o I mean, weren't there enough explanations? "The will of G-d" "G-d's ways are mysterious" "Original sin" ... why is the myth of Lucifer and the war in Heaven necessary?

Unless to give people who are frustrated with life or with G-d the satisfaction of knowing that someone rebelled against Him. ;)

Originally Posted by Elen0Sila

... why is the myth of Lucifer and the war in Heaven necessary?

EXCELLENT question! What if, at the core of it, it is to depict a Heavenly Being who chose to turn-away from having a relationship with God

what if God and Satan were the same force but it was like a case of mutiple personality? And why does this have to be complicated? I mean, yes we can make it complicated but it doesn't have to be. Of course, I am more a scientist than a religionist and like to look at things from that angle first because I frankly don't believe in the devil. As I said, the only thing we have definitive proof of are evil acts. Speculation about the devil is just that, speculation. For me, this leads to the idea that somewhere the human doing evil acts has a fractured psyche of some kind, not that there is a being out there whispering in his/her ear to do wrong. Perhaps if we explore the fractured psyche we could understand more importantly how to address acts of evil. As much as I love speculating, I like more finding middle ground where we can take constructive action. The concept of the devil doesn't allow me to do that. Thanks!

I like more finding middle ground where we can take constructive action. The concept of the devil doesn't allow me to do that.

Such a good point! Maybe the purpose of the devil is not so much to explain evil, but to delegate responsibility for evil? If the devil is responsible, people don't have to bear the blame. And, as you point out, if the devil is responsible there's little constructive that we can do about it.

Personally, I've never believed that there is a devil, and now I have even more reason not to! :twisted:

Now that we have established that its quite likely there is no devil, is there also no god? Just as evil has been personalized into Satan, has power been personalized into God?

What if all that we attribute to god is really the function of consciousness? For example, whatever if this mysterious power that allows us to perceive the world, have feelings, move from place to place and experience a full life is really the accumulated power of our consciousness interacting and reacting with matter?

Since we can't prove there is a God, we can only experience the byproducts of God's power, perhaps there really is no god as we think. I have never believed that God was a He, and I have come to believe that God is not even a personified being. Could God actually be synergy?

Synergy is "the action or effect of two or more substances to achieve an effect in which each is individually incapable." I believe Buckminister Fuller coined this term. From a quantum psychics point of view, matter behaves either like a wave or a particle. when its not being observed it's a wave, when it is, its becomes a particle. This means that the observer has a huge influence on how that waves cogulates into matter. Maybe we really are the only "ones" here and the synegy of all collective consciousness is really the power we attribute to a God.

Just a thought!

1) "...is there also no god? has power been personalized into God?

Hello Barbara,

I believe this question is one of the most important one's a person can ask in their lifetime. You might have to answer a few more questions first though, like what is the nature of the soul? What is life? I know a number of people who dedicated their whole life to answering this question before they received an answer.

2) "Since we can't prove there is a God, we can only experience the byproducts of God's power, perhaps there really is no god as we think."

What proof would we need that there is a God? A miracle? If this infinitely complex universe with it's delicately arranged laws and balances, many of which are beyond our perception is not a miracle, then what more do we want as proof?

A lot of people say 'I don't believe in God because I can't see Him'. So what does God say to this? This is a quote from Krishna, who many people (including me) say was God Himself who visited the Earth around 3000BC. Here's His answer (it's a comment He made after showing someone He was actually God):

'The form you are seeing with your transcendental eyes cannot be understood simply by studying the scripture, nor by undergoing serious penances, nor by charity, nor by worship. It is not by these means that one can see Me as I am.

My dear Arjuna, only by undivided devotional service can I be understood as I am, standing before you, and can thus be seen directly. Only in this way can you enter into the mysteries of My understanding.' (Bhagavad-Gita 11.53/54)

So if this is God's answer, unless we have the purity of heart, and eyes to see God, then He will always remain a mystery to us. But if we take to the process of 'devotional service' then eventually through purifaction of our consciousness we should be able to see Him, face to Face. This can be done scientifically - here God Himself has given the process, if we take to it properly then by experiment we can either reject or accept the hypothesis. By speculation we will never know the answer.

3) "I have never believed that God was a He, and I have come to believe that God is not even a personified being. Could God actually be synergy?"

From my experience I would say that God is definitely a Person. But He does have energies that work under His control that could be referred to as Synergy. Krishna's 'female' aspect is known as 'Hare', together 'Hare' & 'Krishna' describe the Supreme Absolute Truth.

Hope you find this interesting.

Hare Krishna,

Your servant,

Das

Dasa,

I think that you may misunderstand me. I did not say I did not believe in a creator power. I agree, human life itself is an awe-inspiring complicated miracle. Who or whatever creates it surely is a god. I'm saying, whatever or whomever it is, is a mystery. Because of the infinite mystery of God none of us claim to have the one truth about God.

That's the beauty of the mystery. Everyone gets to have his or her own relationship to it. You find the most comfort in the vision of your god as a person. I acknowledge and respect that that is the choice if it's different than mine. As long as my god is not a person, you cannot claim that it is the truth. It is your truth, and I respect it as such. I hope that your relationship to your god brings you peace and helps you live a life of value, character and compassion. My relationship to mine does. I have a moral, spiritual, inspiration, creative, living, breathing 24/7 relationship to my creator source.

Debating whose god is truer is like chasing your tail.

Namaste

Hello Barbara,

C'mon you did ask "is there also no god?", I was just sharing some thoughts in answer to the question. ;-)

Krishna describes that the Supreme has both Personal and Impersonal features, I was not trying to get into a sectarian argument. Although God may be infinite, still He is not said to be without form.

B-Gita 8.9: "One should meditate upon the Supreme Person as the one who knows everything, as He who is the oldest, who is the controller, who is smaller than the smallest, who is the maintainer of everything, who is beyond all material conception, who is inconceivable, and who is always a person. He is luminous like the sun, and He is transcendental, beyond this material nature."

Hare Krishna,

your servant,

Das
:-)

Now that we have established that its quite likely there is no devil, is there also no god? Just as evil has been personalized into Satan, has power been personalized into God?

First of all, I wonder if "power" is the most apt word to use in this case. Personally, I've never put much emphasis on any belief that G-d has "power" in the sense of supreme strength or awe-inspiring acts. What is more important to me is G-d's identity as everything good and loving in the world. So, taking that definition of G-d (G-d exists when people choose to act in ways that are good, kind, loving, just, etc.) then there is (fortunately!) proof everywhere that G-d exists.

The devil is usually seen as an agent causing evil, mayhem, injustice, etc. Therefore, if you believe in free-will, it's impossible to believe that the devil exists. Whereas, if you believe that G-d is essentially brought into being by human choices every day, then the argument that says "there is no devil" does not also imply that there is no G-d. I would say that G-d without a doubt exists, and that I have serious doubts about the existence of the devil, and both of these beliefs are based on free-will. (Yes, I will join that thread, Spacey! Soon...)

So that's my opinion. Of course everyone sees it differently! :)

Also, about whether or not G-d is a "He" ... an excellent issue you raised, Barbara With. Perhaps we should have a new thread?