Love

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Oh I see.....yes and so are you.

ohh yeahh baby, 30x pair of double D.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by shivatar

The IAM THE T ____IT.

lol

edit: let me know if you laughed. I died laughing. lol

I sort of tried to smile, raised the corner of one lip, but nope, didn't happen.

Having said that and to get back to (t)it, you can teach a parrot to say "I AM" and yes, it's even a nice thing to know, to be aware of...to understand.

But that which is love...Brahman...Oneness...Shiva...God...whatever name you call 'IT' cannot be known, understood by the mind, although we DO try, don't we, Shivatar?

We think we know Him and then it's 'nope, that ain't it'...and then it's like "okay smarty-God, who's saying 'that aint it?" and it's like "you know" and I'm like "no, I don't...show me!" and then it's "what would you have me show you?" and we're like "You!" and God's like "I'm showing you, but you can't see it" and then we're like "what's the use showing me then, smarty-God?" and God goes "Who is showing you?" and we're like "...but you said you're showing me...so you are you, right?" and God goes "nope, that ain't it...try moar plz" and you go "sheesh, you're impossible, I give UP" and God goes "great! now you can see me".

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I sort of tried to smile, raised the corner of one lip, but nope, didn't happen.

Having said that and to get back to (t)it, you can teach a parrot to say "I AM" and yes, it's even a nice thing to know, to be aware of...to understand.

But that which is love...Brahman...Oneness...Shiva...God...whatever name you call 'IT' cannot be known, understood by the mind, although we DO try, don't we, Shivatar?

We think we know Him and then it's 'nope, that ain't it'...and then it's like "okay smarty-God, who's saying 'that aint it?" and it's like "you know" and I'm like "no, I don't...show me!" and then it's "what would you have me show you?" and we're like "You!" and God's like "I'm showing you, but you can't see it" and then we're like "what's the use showing me then, smarty-God?" and God goes "Who is showing you?" and we're like "...but you said you're showing me...so you are you, right?" and God goes "nope, that ain't it...try moar plz" and you go "sheesh, you're impossible, I give UP" and God goes "great! now you can see me".

I don't bother trying to be what I cannot be.

I am all that I can be, at that I entirely succeed.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by shivatar

I don't bother trying to be what I cannot be.

I am all that I can be, at that I entirely succeed.

How do you know what you cannot be and what sets this perceived limitation?

Isn't what you are also everything you cannot be, by very definition?

What stops me from having that full-on Shiva experience again? love.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Many have experienced this feeling, but what feels it? Does it not arise within, totally independent from the requirement of the awareness and yet, it is felt by nothing which actually feels it?

Love exists as the spontaneity of expression, of being totality within itself, which is love. Love is Brahman, the Oneness, magnified and personified into that which it is, just like energy pervades matter with the awareness of form.

Many will say "I am in love" separate from the loving consciousness arising, yet they are not separate. The tears of love's joy will flow and yet no-one cries. Laughter will occur simultaneously and yet, no-one laughs.

Love is that which delineates dry logic and mental awareness from a lived experience through love, to embrace all beings as one in the spirit and not just say everything manifests as Oneness, yet go on hating and hurting with bitterness in their heart.

They may also say that hate is unfolding in Oneness as does love, yet dwelling in hate is preferred to realising the essence of love, which they truly are.

It is beauty, wonder, awe, astonishment, amazement, letting things just be, letting it all go and dissolving into the love...it is all about surrender...surrender of the mind, the ego, personal will, all notions of duality into the ocean of cosmic love (Brahman) until the self is loved as the love which it is - totally...unconditionally.

Hello Shivani Devi

Please forgive that I have not read through this entire thread; time is short of late so I am only skimming.

Regarding this opening post, I wanted to let you know that in my way of knowledge, love is not something conditional, nor is it only a feeling, an emotion, it is not even a state.

In my area of training, unconditional (or true) love is without conditions, it is ever present, omni-present, it knows no differentiation, it is love unbound and lived fully to the fore. In fact, it is the life blood of the Universe.

In my limited experience, there are many states of ecstasy, clarity, or many states which are seemingly out of this world, times of feeling - at least they are enough to get our attention. Were it not for this would so many of us stay the path of spiritual practice But it is not the end of the story for if it were so, that would mean Love comes and goes as well, whereas God could never be absent, if God is real.

I also wanted to add that, in my opinion, Love arises out of a two-fold manifestation:

1. Practice - the practices and themes that help a spiritual aspirant course and navigate from a limited perspective to a much wider expanse, where ego is effectively minimized/neutralized and in the Adepts, well,

2. Wisdom - this refers to the direct inner knowing (Gnosis) of spiritual themes and "inner knowledge" that arises from practice. This helps inform and educate the supplicant with things such as the true nature of the person, consciousness, the world, etc. These matters temper the supplicant and inform him/her in ways that are beyond ordinary (or read) knowledge, and help forge the spiritual destiny that lies ahead for all those on the path.

This is my perspective anyway

BT

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Hello Shivani Devi

Please forgive that I have not read through this entire thread; time is short of late so I am only skimming.

Regarding this opening post, I wanted to let you know that in my way of knowledge, love is not something conditional, nor is it only a feeling, an emotion, it is not even a state.

In my area of training, unconditional (or true) love is without conditions, it is ever present, omni-present, it knows no differentiation, it is love unbound and lived fully to the fore. In fact, it is the life blood of the Universe.

In my limited experience, there are many states of ecstasy, clarity, or many states which are seemingly out of this world, times of feeling - at least they are enough to get our attention. Were it not for this would so many of us stay the path of spiritual practice But it is not the end of the story for if it were so, that would mean Love comes and goes as well, whereas God could never be absent, if God is real.

I also wanted to add that, in my opinion, Love arises out of a two-fold manifestation:

1. Practice - the practices and themes that help a spiritual aspirant course and navigate from a limited perspective to a much wider expanse, where ego is effectively minimized/neutralized and in the Adepts, well,

2. Wisdom - this refers to the direct inner knowing (Gnosis) of spiritual themes and "inner knowledge" that arises from practice. This helps inform and educate the supplicant with things such as the true nature of the person, consciousness, the world, etc. These matters temper the supplicant and inform him/her in ways that are beyond ordinary (or read) knowledge, and help forge the spiritual destiny that lies ahead for all those on the path.

This is my perspective anyway

BT

...and what an amazing and true perspective it is!

Thank you, Blossom.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Many have experienced this feeling, but what feels it? Does it not arise within, totally independent from the requirement of the awareness and yet, it is felt by nothing which actually feels it?

Love exists as the spontaneity of expression, of being totality within itself, which is love. Love is Brahman, the Oneness, magnified and personified into that which it is, just like energy pervades matter with the awareness of form.

Many will say "I am in love" separate from the loving consciousness arising, yet they are not separate. The tears of love's joy will flow and yet no-one cries. Laughter will occur simultaneously and yet, no-one laughs.

Love is that which delineates dry logic and mental awareness from a lived experience through love, to embrace all beings as one in the spirit and not just say everything manifests as Oneness, yet go on hating and hurting with bitterness in their heart.

They may also say that hate is unfolding in Oneness as does love, yet dwelling in hate is preferred to realising the essence of love, which they truly are.

It is beauty, wonder, awe, astonishment, amazement, letting things just be, letting it all go and dissolving into the love...it is all about surrender...surrender of the mind, the ego, personal will, all notions of duality into the ocean of cosmic love (Brahman) until the self is loved as the love which it is - totally...unconditionally.

Inspired My heart and soul are uplifted by these statements, yours and BT's immediately below.

Very nice... Thank you.
Peace & blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Hello Shivani Devi

Please forgive that I have not read through this entire thread; time is short of late so I am only skimming.

Regarding this opening post, I wanted to let you know that in my way of knowledge, love is not something conditional, nor is it only a feeling, an emotion, it is not even a state.

In my area of training, unconditional (or true) love is without conditions, it is ever present, omni-present, it knows no differentiation, it is love unbound and lived fully to the fore. In fact, it is the life blood of the Universe.

In my limited experience, there are many states of ecstasy, clarity, or many states which are seemingly out of this world, times of feeling - at least they are enough to get our attention. Were it not for this would so many of us stay the path of spiritual practice But it is not the end of the story for if it were so, that would mean Love comes and goes as well, whereas God could never be absent, if God is real.

I also wanted to add that, in my opinion, Love arises out of a two-fold manifestation:

1. Practice - the practices and themes that help a spiritual aspirant course and navigate from a limited perspective to a much wider expanse, where ego is effectively minimized/neutralized and in the Adepts, well,

2. Wisdom - this refers to the direct inner knowing (Gnosis) of spiritual themes and "inner knowledge" that arises from practice. This helps inform and educate the supplicant with things such as the true nature of the person, consciousness, the world, etc. These matters temper the supplicant and inform him/her in ways that are beyond ordinary (or read) knowledge, and help forge the spiritual destiny that lies ahead for all those on the path.

This is my perspective anyway

BT

Lovely...beautifully said. Just spot on, all of it.

The next step for many, to which you allude, is to integrate this level of illumination "back down" into the level of individuated consciousness, within one's day-to-day realm and everyday, grounded reality and within one's everyday relationships and working contexts of being and doing.

We really are of many places and times [so to speak], all at once. When we finally realise that, we can allow ourselves the expansion of our experience and of our being, and begin to take the next steps on our journeys as eternal souls [individuated aspects of One consciousness] and as a communal species here and now.

What may now seem a paradox for some (grasping non-duality yet living day-to-day in separate physical forms with individuated (yet connected) consciousness, is really no paradox at all. Interbeing and ultimate Oneness is truth, as is our individuated consciousness and individuated manifest existence in the physical realm. Paradox is simply a term for describing aspects of reality which we've not yet apprehended or fully digested or integrated. In that sense, we could say all that is, is paradoxical on many levels for us. And yet, it is no less true that what is, is.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Iamit

"yet dwelling in hate is preferred".

Who or what prefers?

Iamit, hello there (I am addressed "you" personally , that is, your individuated yet interconnected consciousness within your temporal incarnation) and I hope you're well!

Please see my follow-on adds to Blossom above. Having established the who's, we can now discuss the why's.

Many will say "I am in love" separate from the loving consciousness arising, yet they are not separate. The tears of love's joy will flow and yet no-one cries. Laughter will occur simultaneously and yet, no-one laughs.

Love is that which delineates dry logic and mental awareness from a lived experience through love, to embrace all beings as one in the spirit and not just say everything manifests as Oneness, yet go on hating and hurting with bitterness in their heart.

They may also say that hate is unfolding in Oneness as does love, yet dwelling in hate is preferred to realising the essence of love, which they truly are.

My interpretation of Shivani's statement is as follows, very broad strokes...
No one is separate as in truly apart, as we in our individuated consciousness exist in interbeing. Our relationship to the One is all at once fractal, emanation, and individuation. We are not separate from the one but neither do any one of us fully comprise all that is, regardless of whether or not we expand our individuated consciousness to the level of all that is. It is not wholly correct to say individuated consciousness is illusory. It is not illusory. The perception of strict separation is the great illusion. We are individuated aspects of Oneness. We are nothing but dust and ashes (material reality) and yet the universe was created for us (by Us as Oneness).

The relationship of awareness of non-duality to awareness of our individuated existence is (just for illustration) a bit like the "magic ratio" of positive : negative interactions/statements/etc. Which is, acc'd to researchers, around 5:1. Many of us would say it should be a bit closer to at least 10:1, hahaha. But let's go with it. A similar sort of ratio is needed for humanity's balance of energetic and manifest lovingkindess to equanimity. These can be represented kabbalistically (mystically) as (let's just say) 5 parts lovingkindness to one part equanimity (awe/faith, judgment, strength, discipline).

I put someone like Jesus as more like 2:1 or 3:1...but I don't think humanity is there yet...meaning, he was able to essentially change the laws of manifest reality to sustain physical existence without the necessary additional portion of expansive weak energy (lovingkindness) yet without causing a total collapse. He basically brought different laws into this physical realm, such that (I suppose) less expansive speed is required to sustain the balance of strong force (equanimity) to weak force. What Jesus did, was manifest a MUCH more powerful "weak" force, a much more powerful lovingkindness. One that was able to handle a much higher ratio of weak : strong force, of lovingkindness to equanimity.

This is why his teachings speak so powerfully to both energies, but in a way that is not present in most other masters' teachings. I am not a Christian, BTW. I simply see that the way forward for humanity will involve strengthening the power of our lovingkindness along these lines, such that a much greater degree of equanimity can also be made manifest. We will not be the same humanity when we are done. We will literally have transformed not only ourselves but our entire reality, and at the most fundamental of levels. This is the power of lovingkindness...to ultimately allow for a vastly greater expression of equanimity WHILST doing so from a place of individuation, or infinite variation of individuated consciousness.

Similarly...and by no coincidence...IMO the balance that humanity will need to move forward, very broadly, will be integrating that same sort of mix of groundedness in individuated interbeing with awareness of the larger non-duality. Those who veer too strongly into ungrounded non-duality will eventually tend to obstruct their own progress as individuated consciousness. This is obviously far less common in humanity at this time, LOL...though it's possible for some. Harm to others as well as self is also possible from this sort of imbalance. Clearly, there is almost never any theoretical instance where overriding or denying the existence of someone's individual humanity has ever accrued any greater good. This is the energy of excessive equanimity (balance of highest good of all equally to the self), which will easily subsume the individuated aspects entirely without a sufficient & far greater relative portion of expansive "weak force", or lovingkindness. For example you can see this manifest in the physical realm on a very large scale...i.e., how is it that all matter is not eventually sucked into a nearby black hole? It's at least partly to do with the vast speed at which space is expanding and things are moving away from one another.

Likewise, those who veer too strongly toward immersion in the individuated aspects, particularly indulgence in sensate, material, and overreaching, aggressive aspects of reality, also tend to obstruct their own progress. This is obviously far more common in humanity at this time...as we are nearly drowning under the weight of our violence, vices, degradations, addictions, and exploitations directed toward self, others, and Gaia. This is the energy of excessive lovingkindness (tolerance, acceptance of individuation and of the infinite diversity of what is...particularly and centrally for oneself) without sufficient equanimity (seeking the highest good of all). Though we need a much larger portion of this expansive energy to prevent total consumption of all that is back into the emptiness...still, a sufficient portion is critical for our sustainability AND progress, either one, on any level. We can look around at our modern culture and clearly see how a lack of sufficient internal and culturally-supported (normative, expected) portion of equanimity leads to a severe imbalance, with pervasive misalignment and suffering perpetrated onto both self and others.

Those who say hate is a part of the unfolding of Oneness by way of justifying their imbalance on either side...(though imbalance on the side of excessive tolerance for oneself without adequate equanimity for all others is far more common today IMO) are, presumably, adequately aware of the imbalance and are choosing to perpetrate it rather than owning it and addressing it. I call this the integrity gap; once sufficiently aware, we are at some level consciously choosing in each now moment either to address it and move toward balance and right alignment, or else to ignore it or even to actively perpetrate it.

Put another way, if we want a greater recognition of non-duality and the implicit apprehension of the equanimity of all that is, we'll need to invest in ownership and lovingkindness within manifest individuation ...and do so in the most radical possible ways.

And heartfelt thanks as always to the guides, who provide insight to me which I unpack later for consideration and reflection.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Shivani Devi]

Likewise, those who veer too strongly toward immersion in the individuated aspects, particularly indulgence in sensate, material, and overreaching, aggressive aspects of reality, also tend to obstruct their own progress. This is obviously far more common in humanity at this time...as we are nearly drowning under the weight of our violence, vices, degradations, addictions, and exploitations directed toward self, others, and Gaia. This is the energy of excessive lovingkindness (tolerance, acceptance of individuation and of the infinite diversity of what is...particularly and centrally for oneself) without sufficient equanimity (seeking the highest good of all). Though we need a much larger portion of this expansive energy to prevent total consumption of all that is back into the emptiness...still, a sufficient portion is critical for our sustainability AND progress, either one, on any level. We can look around at our modern culture and clearly see how a lack of sufficient internal and culturally-supported (normative, expected) portion of equanimity leads to a severe imbalance, with pervasive misalignment and suffering perpetrated onto both self and others.

Those who say hate is a part of the unfolding of Oneness by way of justifying their imbalance on either side...(though imbalance on the side of excessive tolerance for oneself without adequate equanimity for all others is far more common today IMO) are, presumably, adequately aware of the imbalance and are choosing to perpetrate it rather than owning it and addressing it. I call this the integrity gap; once sufficiently aware, we are at some level consciously choosing in each now moment either to address it and move toward balance and right alignment, or else to ignore it or even to actively perpetrate it.

Precisely, 7L and this was the whole impetus behind my creation of this thread in the first place!

Thank you for your beautiful comments and taking the time to elaborate on my humble mental offerings. <3

I have learned throughout my life and moreso recently, that people (in general) will only acknowledge another's existence only if it benefits them by doing so, or if they have something to 'teach', 'prove' or 'lord over' by allowing it.

If another is simply 'being themselves' and 'existing in their own awareness/bliss' or just saying stuff for the heck of it...and if another cannot question it, if another cannot argue with it, if they cannot fight it, if it doesn't stimulate them into direct aggression or mental agitation, neither what is being said, nor who is saying it even exists!

I have proven this over and over and over (ad nauseum)!

I shall make a thread, like "Schrodinger's Cat" for example...like many offerings I have made in the Hindu forum, like many replies I have made all OVER these boards, like many things I have said in real life too, like suggestions I have made, like correcting a definition, expressing my own truth...and guess what? it gets IGNORED and do you know why? because it isn't being confrontational in the aspect of anger and intolerance! I am not 'hateful' enough it seems to be acknowledged!

It is because I am not hurting anybody else by doing/saying it! because people want to be attacked! they want to be hated! they want to be stimulated mentally by ANY emotion that does not include love! and I just cannot oblige there...I mean, of course, I can say "you are a stupid idiot if you believe that. It's a load of rubbish! you are delusional...it is NOT how things are" and you just watch, I will emerge from that total invisibility and obscurity into "whoa, so this thing that is directly attacking me actually EXISTS"...and I feel that is why people do it, or else another wouldn't give a tinker's cuss about their neighbour, quite frankly.