Discussion on the Buddhist Jhanas

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Maybe not goals.. but signposts along the way.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

"Signposts" along the way is fine as well but, on second thought, it might not even be that.

Originally Posted by Gem

First, on the way to what?


It's a more important question than it first seems to be, because the future orientation of desiring 'special things' inhibits the ability to see 'this' just as it is.

You will notice that, in the same sentence I added that "it might not even be that". That allows JonesBoy to continue with HIS thoughts about "signposts along the way" to wherever HE thinks he is going.

There is a point at which words become totally inadequate and that point has been reached. Just be in the now and "see 'this' just as it as", as you duly indicated.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

You will notice that, in the same sentence I added that "it might not even be that". That allows JonesBoy to continue with HIS thoughts about "signposts along the way" to wherever HE thinks he is going.

There is a point at which words become totally inadequate and that point has been reached. Just be in the now and "see 'this' just as it as", as you duly indicated.

Traditions are about the practices. Practices that have been tested by countless people with life times of practice for thousands of years.

The Jhanas are not "special things" they are common to everyone. One does not have to go step by step, everyone is different but what they describe are stages along the way.

Shine with object for instance. One of the very first things that is taught about it is the bliss from the meditation. It is not a special thing just something that is a natural result of the practice. Another aspect is for one to learn not to get lost in the bliss. Not to attach to the bliss which is very much in line with the 1st jhana.

Another thing that is taught is to no try and race up the jhanas but to make sure you have mastered one before moving on to deeper meditation realizations.

As you master the levels one by one the results of that silence in practice begins to radiate into daily life.

"Special experiences" are common in spiritual practices. Understanding what some of them mean can be very important. Often an experience can become a state of being. Yearning for such experiences is a mistake and will keep them ever out of reach. At the same time if you never experience silence, bliss or energy then maybe you should reexamine your practice.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Traditions are about the practices. Practices that have been tested by countless people with life times of practice for thousands of years.

The Jhanas are not "special things" they are common to everyone. One does not have to go step by step, everyone is different but what they describe are stages along the way.

Shine with object for instance. One of the very first things that is taught about it is the bliss from the meditation. It is not a special thing just something that is a natural result of the practice. Another aspect is for one to learn not to get lost in the bliss. Not to attach to the bliss which is very much in line with the 1st jhana.

Another thing that is taught is to no try and race up the jhanas but to make sure you have mastered one before moving on to deeper meditation realizations.

As you master the levels one by one the results of that silence in practice begins to radiate into daily life.

"Special experiences" are common in spiritual practices. Understanding what some of them mean can be very important. Often an experience can become a state of being. Yearning for such experiences is a mistake and will keep them ever out of reach. At the same time if you never experience silence, bliss or energy then maybe you should reexamine your practice.

The Sufi Pir Vilayat Khan, son of Hazrat Inayat Khan, once said that "the ego is very important ..... until one no longer needs it."

Similarly, the traditional practices are also very important .... until one no longer needs them. I have done many traditional practices in the past and probably would not be where I currently am without those practices.

Your points are well taken.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

You will notice that, in the same sentence I added that "it might not even be that". That allows JonesBoy to continue with HIS thoughts about "signposts along the way" to wherever HE thinks he is going.

There is a point at which words become totally inadequate and that point has been reached. Just be in the now and "see 'this' just as it as", as you duly indicated.

I think the key difference in describing types of experience as indicators progress and talking about meditation itself is the former describes 'signposts' and the latter pertains to 'the way'. The main reason I mention this is, when did my meditation training some 'signposts' or stages were described, but they were not the same experiences this thread describes. In either case, signpost experiences weren't considered to be progress in meditation.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

The Sufi Pir Vilayat Khan, son of Hazrat Inayat Khan, once said that "the ego is very important ..... until one no longer needs it."

Similarly, the traditional practices are also very important .... until one no longer needs them. I have done many traditional practices in the past and probably would not be where I currently am without those practices.

Your points are well taken.

Would you like to discuss what "until one no longer needs it" means?

[Samana]

Hi all,


Instructions for jhana practice can be found in Ajahn Brahm's meditator's handbook "Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond ".

Some excerpts from the book can be found here:

https://www.wisdompubs.org/sites/def...nd-Preview.pdf



Best wishes,

Sam _/|\_

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Would you like to discuss what "until one no longer needs it" means?

As I mentioned earlier, there is a point at which words become totally inadequate and, at that point, verbal and/or written discussions cease. Silence then becomes the vehicle of expression and communication. (This is obviously difficult to communicate on a thread of this nature.)

When I was at the 1998 Haridwar Kumbha Mela (and also at a Taoist monastery in Chegdu, China, at another time), I was fortunate to have had this direct experience. It cannot be described in words. The Haridwar happening had multiple witnesses who indicated that the sage and I were in a silent trance-like state for over 3 hours during which time all of my non-verbal questions were answered to my complete satisfaction until there was nothing more to "ask" within the limits of my state of development at that time.

P.S. I strongly suspect that the sage was the primary catalyst for the effective silent communication, but perhaps it was just the right connection between the two of us (whatever that means). I don't know and, in any case, I can't explain it completely in words.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

As I mentioned earlier, there is a point at which words become totally inadequate and, at that point, verbal and/or written discussions cease. Silence then becomes the vehicle of expression and communication. (This is obviously difficult to communicate on a thread of this nature.)

When I was at the 1998 Haridwar Kumbha Mela (and also at a Taoist monastery in Chegdu, China, at another time), I was fortunate to have had this direct experience. It cannot be described in words. The Haridwar happening had multiple witnesses who indicated that the sage and I were in a silent trance-like state for over 3 hours during which time all of my non-verbal questions were answered to my complete satisfaction until there was nothing more to "ask" within the limits of my state of development at that time.

P.S. I strongly suspect that the sage was the primary catalyst for the effective silent communication, but perhaps it was just the right connection between the two of us (whatever that means). I don't know and, in any case, I can't explain it completely in words.

I would agree that silence such as you are describing is very possible. Just being in the presence of others can induce very strong silence. I am very familiar with working with others and increasing silence as you have described. Yet that is different than not needing to meditate anymore. It is a state that you experienced and then went away, it lasted for a time.

Your experience does sound very interesting and if you don't mind sharing his name I would like to check him out.

Have you had other such experiences with other people? Interested in having more or was that one time good enough?

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I would agree that silence such as you are describing is very possible. Just being in the presence of others can induce very strong silence. I am very familiar with working with others and increasing silence as you have described. Yet that is different than not needing to meditate anymore. It is a state that you experienced and then went away, it lasted for a time.

Your experience does sound very interesting and if you don't mind sharing his name I would like to check him out.

Have you had other such experiences with other people? Interested in having more or was that one time good enough?

I don't have the sage's name since it was a one-time meeting that had a lasting effect. When you read what I am writing now, you will understand why I don't have his name.

I was in the Krishna tent at the Khumba Mela with a bunch of friends. There was food, entertainment, and lectures there but it wasn't really satisfying. I decided to go outside for a while and crossed the gravel street to go to the park opposite the tent. I was standing behind a tree when I saw a man in a black turban and regular dress clothes sitting in the park near a fire chanting "Svaha" repeatedly. There was something magnetic about his being and I was just staring from behind the tree. When he spotted me, he signalled (no words) for me to come near. He then pointed to the ground and I sat before him. He took out his japa beads and started chanting silently. I similarly took out my rudraksha japa beads and started chanting my mantra silently. (For me, chanting a mantra reduces my thoughts to one --- the mantra --- and that leads me into the silence once the mantra chanting subsides.) At that point, I was in the meditative stillness. A question would arise in my mind and it was immediately answered silently in an indescribable manner. It was as if my whole mind was filled with the details of the response just as one sees the whole countryside in one moment when one opens one's eyes on top of a mountain. Once I had digested the response, silence was restored. At some point, another question would arise and the response came in a similar manner. This continued until I had no more questions. At that point, I bowed to the master; he nodded. I left without saying a word as it was intuitively obvious that all was completed.

When I returned to the tent, my colleagues asked me where I had been since I had been gone for over 3 hours. When I described what had happened, they were skeptical and wanted to see this man. We immediately went out to the park where the man's fire was still burning but the man was no longer there. They looked at me skeptically. There was another man nearby who had apparently been there all afternoon. I asked him where the man in the black turban had gone. He turned to the point where that man had been sitting and exclaimed in surprise that the man had been there just a few minutes before. He had no idea of where he had gone. He then added that the Black Turban Man and I had been in a trance-like state for hours earlier and that people were staring at us because we were both motionless for that extended period of time and seemed completely unaware of our surroundings during that extended silent connection.

I never saw the man in the black turban again, but I will never forget that. I use this example because there was an eye-witness to our silent trance-like meeting. Hence, I can't give you the name of the sage. All I can say is that all my questions were answered in this highly unusual manner. (This has happened more than once with different sages, so it no longer strikes me as "highly unusual". )

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

The Sufi Pir Vilayat Khan, son of Hazrat Inayat Khan, once said that "the ego is very important ..... until one no longer needs it."

Similarly, the traditional practices are also very important .... until one no longer needs them. I have done many traditional practices in the past and probably would not be where I currently am without those practices.

Your points are well taken.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Would you like to discuss what "until one no longer needs it" means?

I was thinking more about your question during meditative sleep last night and I can answer your question a little more specifically with a personal example and a comment from Ramana Maharshi.

Personally, I used the Satipattana Sutra of the Buddha as a guide to practice for an extended period of time. I would correspondingly meditate on the body, the feelings, the thoughts, and so on in accordance with the instructions in the Sutra. Eventually, there came a point where I went beyond the body, feelings, and thoughts into the Great Stillness where the jhanas manifest. In conscious sleep, nothing arose to disturb the silence as well. Therefore, what was once a very integral part of my practice was no longer needed. (This obviously took years for me.) I am still aware of my body, feelings, and thoughts but in a different way now as the meditative practice is no longer really needed in its original form. One can argue that the practice continues, but not really.

Ramana Maharshi used to advise people to meditate on "I AM" with no other thoughts in keeping with his interpretation of "Be still and know ... that ... I AM ... god". Eventually, he indicated, "that which is does not even say I AM". This signalled the end of that particular practice for him.