Wicca.. a religion for children

Originally Posted by Chrode

What do you talking about...?

What he is saying, and what he has said over and over and you just are NOT accepting - is that WICCA is a brand-new religion, INVENTED by Gerald Gardner in the 1950's, just like St. Paul INVENTED xianity, which later got validated by Constantine at the Council of Nicea.

ALL RELIGIONS ARE MAN MADE!

Gardner, Doreen Valiente, Janet + Stewar Farrar, Alexander Sanders - all had a hand in INVENTING Wicca and Modern Witchcraft. You really need to understand that. In America, in the 1970's we had Starhawk, Selena Fox, Szusanna Budapest, Laurie Cabot. Then we had Scott Cunningham and now we have Christopher Penzcak. All these people had a hand in shaping Wicca the way it is today.

As to your statement "The teachings of Wicca come to express in the Charges... what you se in other books are really eclectic neo-paganism and they have nothing to do with Wicca..." - well you know - Wicca as a religion is EVOLVING, just as xianity has evolved over the years (even the Catholics just this past Sunday, Nov.27 changed the words of the Mass).

So what are YOU saying Chrode? Are you saying that to be Wiccan, I MUST adhere to the Charge? Which says I MUST be skyclad? in 20 degrees in six feet of snow?

Are you that blind that you take EVERYTHING at it's face value? You are spouting Gardnerisms as tho Gardner was god and he was not. You are going by his book and saying his book is the be-all and end-all of Wicca, yet say witchcraft canNOT be learned from a book. I think you need to pay attention to what you are saying.

And also learn a lesson from something that happened some 30 years in Guyana from a guy named Jones. Then do some more research and some more research. Better check out Isaac Bonewit's Cult Evaluation Form while you're at it.

As for eclectic Neo-Paganism, and Neo-Wicca, yes, that is what is happening in England (UK) and America (US). As Norseman said, in the UK the movement is BACK to the old indiginant folk religions that Gardner BASED Wicca on. In America, it is also evolving.

The Charge was written relatively a short time ago by another human being and like I said, I'm not going skyclad when it's cold. ALL religions evolve with the times and geographical locations and needs. And advances in medical and social norms.

In the Old Testament, in the book of Leviticus, I believe, is a whole set of hygenic LAWS, pertaining to women. Today, with items that can be bought even in supermarkets, women no longer need adhere to those LAWS.

When any religion starts handing down LAWS, it sets up the path that anyone who does not adhere to those laws, are wrong, lesser than those who do subscribe to those laws, and that's how religious wars get started.

Don't forget Chrode - we're all on the same path - to find the Divine, whether we are skyclad, Wicca, Neo-Pagan or whatever.

one more thing Chrode - who initiated Gardner? If only another wiccan can initiate a wiccan, where did the first wiccan come from? If what you're saying - about LAWS that a wiccan cannot initiate himself, then did Gardner initiate himself? There could not have been another wiccan around, because who intitiated that one? Gardner? But he could not have, because he was not intitated yet, and the LAW of Wicca says no self-initiiation. So Gardner in his own book and words and self-made LAWS, negates his own words there.

Originally Posted by LadyMoondancer

What he is saying, and what he has said over and over and you just are NOT accepting - is that WICCA is a brand-new religion, INVENTED by Gerald Gardner in the 1950's, just like St. Paul INVENTED xianity, which later got validated by Constantine at the Council of Nicea.

ALL RELIGIONS ARE MAN MADE!

Gardner, Doreen Valiente, Janet + Stewar Farrar, Alexander Sanders - all had a hand in INVENTING Wicca and Modern Witchcraft. You really need to understand that. In America, in the 1970's we had Starhawk, Selena Fox, Szusanna Budapest, Laurie Cabot. Then we had Scott Cunningham and now we have Christopher Penzcak. All these people had a hand in shaping Wicca the way it is today.

As to your statement "The teachings of Wicca come to express in the Charges... what you se in other books are really eclectic neo-paganism and they have nothing to do with Wicca..." - well you know - Wicca as a religion is EVOLVING, just as xianity has evolved over the years (even the Catholics just this past Sunday, Nov.27 changed the words of the Mass).

So what are YOU saying Chrode? Are you saying that to be Wiccan, I MUST adhere to the Charge? Which says I MUST be skyclad? in 20 degrees in six feet of snow?

Are you that blind that you take EVERYTHING at it's face value? You are spouting Gardnerisms as tho Gardner was god and he was not. You are going by his book and saying his book is the be-all and end-all of Wicca, yet say witchcraft canNOT be learned from a book. I think you need to pay attention to what you are saying.

And also learn a lesson from something that happened some 30 years in Guyana from a guy named Jones. Then do some more research and some more research. Better check out Isaac Bonewit's Cult Evaluation Form while you're at it.

As for eclectic Neo-Paganism, and Neo-Wicca, yes, that is what is happening in England (UK) and America (US). As Norseman said, in the UK the movement is BACK to the old indiginant folk religions that Gardner BASED Wicca on. In America, it is also evolving.

The Charge was written relatively a short time ago by another human being and like I said, I'm not going skyclad when it's cold. ALL religions evolve with the times and geographical locations and needs. And advances in medical and social norms.

In the Old Testament, in the book of Leviticus, I believe, is a whole set of hygenic LAWS, pertaining to women. Today, with items that can be bought even in supermarkets, women no longer need adhere to those LAWS.

When any religion starts handing down LAWS, it sets up the path that anyone who does not adhere to those laws, are wrong, lesser than those who do subscribe to those laws, and that's how religious wars get started.

Don't forget Chrode - we're all on the same path - to find the Divine, whether we are skyclad, Wicca, Neo-Pagan or whatever.

one more thing Chrode - who initiated Gardner? If only another wiccan can initiate a wiccan, where did the first wiccan come from? If what you're saying - about LAWS that a wiccan cannot initiate himself, then did Gardner initiate himself? There could not have been another wiccan around, because who intitiated that one? Gardner? But he could not have, because he was not intitated yet, and the LAW of Wicca says no self-initiiation. So Gardner in his own book and words and self-made LAWS, negates his own words there.

I agree that Wicca is a new religion but you can't just change a religion what YOU want it to be. Gerald Gardner "created" Wicca therefor it is HES religion and also HES teachings! And yes to become a wiccan you have to believe in the Charges because they are the source to wiccan teaching and practice like a christian believe in the bible and muslim in the quran. It is also therefore you can become a wiccan without initating. Before The Charges came out to the public Wicca was an initatory religion. It is not more BECAUSE of the Charges but still you have to be initated to learn witchcraft or become a preist/preistess.

I understand skyclaid as something you only have to do when you perform witchcraft (in the coven).

You say that Wicca is man maded? Can you prove that? I believe the Charges to be the words of the lord and lady through drawing down the moon.

I don't see Gardner as a god but i see him as the first person in the history who call HIMSELF a witch. He said that he was initated in new forrest coven but no one know how old this coven was. So who initiated the first witch? I believe it to be the Goddess herself.

[norseman]

"Many of the rituals that Coven Wiccans currently use are lifted almost verbatim from Golden Dawn, Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism and Qabala. Coven Wicca seems to be on it's way out, many Wiccans nowadays following a much simplified Book of Shadows published by many authors today and the wisdom is greatly watered down from Gardner's original. Very few Wiccans nowadays celebrate skyclad, as is stated in the Charge of the Goddess, in fact the Charge itself has lessened in importance nowadays."

As I said "manufactured". The above from an ex-HPS who dropped out because of all the pointless ritual and ceremonial.

[norseman]

Also, it is important that while Gardner was involved with wicca, he was also involved with Druidry, the Rosicrucians, the Celtic Christian church. To me that sounds like someone thrashing about to make a name for himself.

Originally Posted by Chrode

Do you have children? What are you going to do with children when you are to a cermony?

children are grown but they have went skyclad before LOL

Originally Posted by Blooms Bright

As a practicing witch...I choose to wear robes for ceremonies. Otherwise, I wear regular attire. As for the Great Rite, I use my chalice and wand to represent the female and male. I honestly don't know many who perform the Great Rite as describe in the past. Many of us practice our craft as a "solitary" and I don't think we choose this path because of the sexual overtone. Wiccan,Hedge witch, pagan or cunning folk , ect... are usually earthy individuals who are in some way, shape, or form connected to the elements including Mother Earth.

I can only speak for myself and hope not to offend. We may travel different paths along our journey. I have discovered much beauty by embracing a nature based spirituality. My children also respect Mother Earth, in there own way. That is what is so amazing, there is so much learn.

I would encourage you to explore some more references before coming to a conclusion on this subject. You might be surprised : )

~As always, Bright Blessings!

Great Rite is still practiced by some covens yes. No many of them who practise it doesnt for the sexual aspects but I believe we are human and some do. has nothing to do with the ritual itself I know a sister who just went through the Great Rite like 2 weeks ago LOL. so no its still practised.

well Chrode, you seem to be the authority in Gardnerian Wicca.

I'm just wondering - why haven't you found your answers in his book.

And your arguement that we cannot change a religion does not take into account what I said about the Old Testament. - Many things in it do not relate to modern 21st century life.

Look around you - religions are changing all the time. Even Islam.

Originally Posted by Chrode

I agree that Wicca is a new religion but you can't just change a religion what YOU want it to be. Gerald Gardner "created" Wicca therefor it is HES religion and also HES teachings! And yes to become a wiccan you have to believe in the Charges because they are the source to wiccan teaching and practice like a christian believe in the bible and muslim in the quran. It is also therefore you can become a wiccan without initating. Before The Charges came out to the public Wicca was an initatory religion. It is not more BECAUSE of the Charges but still you have to be initated to learn witchcraft or become a preist/preistess.

I understand skyclaid as something you only have to do when you perform witchcraft (in the coven).

You say that Wicca is man maded? Can you prove that? I believe the Charges to be the words of the lord and lady through drawing down the moon.

I don't see Gardner as a god but i see him as the first person in the history who call HIMSELF a witch. He said that he was initated in new forrest coven but no one know how old this coven was. So who initiated the first witch? I believe it to be the Goddess herself.

Wrong anyone can go skyclad many Witches Wiccans Solitarys and others have went skyclad during rituals and gatherings. I dont know where your getting your info on skyclads and Great Rite? I mean this is weird..
I personally believe Wicca was a man made source of a way of old. Like I believe God never wrote the bible. Gerald Gardner might have started it but look where it went?. there are no fine lines through some wiccans and Witches. Gardner just wrote what he believed and the way he worshipped then added a rede because in Witchcraft it is Intent and Purpose and Gerald thought that was a huge loop hole. he wanted to close so do ye harm to none. Ours is not so black and white and right and wrong. I think you have alot of misconceptions about certain things and just went for it. People can take one mans thoughts and add to it why cant they? does that take away from what Gerald wrote? no or the movment he has to this day nope. So in a way he was blessed.

Originally Posted by LadyMoondancer

well Chrode, you seem to be the authority in Gardnerian Wicca.

I'm just wondering - why haven't you found your answers in his book.

And your arguement that we cannot change a religion does not take into account what I said about the Old Testament. - Many things in it do not relate to modern 21st century life.

Look around you - religions are changing all the time. Even Islam.

What are you talking about??

Religions don't changing. It is people who interprate it as it can work in modern society.

Originally Posted by Occultist

Wrong anyone can go skyclad many Witches Wiccans Solitarys and others have went skyclad during rituals and gatherings. I dont know where your getting your info on skyclads and Great Rite? I mean this is weird..
I personally believe Wicca was a man made source of a way of old. Like I believe God never wrote the bible. Gerald Gardner might have started it but look where it went?. there are no fine lines through some wiccans and Witches. Gardner just wrote what he believed and the way he worshipped then added a rede because in Witchcraft it is Intent and Purpose and Gerald thought that was a huge loop hole. he wanted to close so do ye harm to none. Ours is not so black and white and right and wrong. I think you have alot of misconceptions about certain things and just went for it. People can take one mans thoughts and add to it why cant they? does that take away from what Gerald wrote? no or the movment he has to this day nope. So in a way he was blessed.

I understand it in that way that skyclaid is something you only have to do when you are in a coven. You don't have to perform skyclaid when you worship the lord and lady solitary.

The charge of the goddess say:

"There shall ye assemble,
ye who are fain to learn all sorcery,
yet have not won its deepest secrets;
to these will I teach things that are yet unknown.
And ye shall be free from slavery;
and as a sign that ye be really free,"

I don't take it out of context.
What do you think i misunderstand?