Nonduality is not sameness, non-differentiation

[eputkonen]

Nonduality does not mean non-differentiation and homogeneity of experience. Think of the ocean. Under water it is all ocean…there is no other…and yet there are different currents, hot and cold spots, etc. The hot and cold spots are not separate or other than the ocean. The various currents are not other than the ocean. One current goes straight North...another swirls and meanders East...it doesn't matter as it is all ocean. So even in endless water…there is variation and happenings. The world is even more complex of an appearance and happening…and yet there is no separation. There is the Self and no other.

[sky]

Originally Posted by eputkonen

Nonduality does not mean non-differentiation and homogeneity of experience. Think of the ocean. Under water it is all ocean…there is no other…and yet there are different currents, hot and cold spots, etc. The hot and cold spots are not separate or other than the ocean. The various currents are not other than the ocean. One current goes straight North...another swirls and meanders East...it doesn't matter as it is all ocean. So even in endless water…there is variation and happenings. The world is even more complex of an appearance and happening…and yet there is no separation. There is the Self and no other.

In Buddhism non-duality ( Advaita ) teaches there is not self, what is ' the self and no other ' ?

[eputkonen]

Originally Posted by sky123

In Buddhism non-duality ( Advaita ) teaches there is not self, what is ' the self and no other ' ?

Buddha came from Hinduism that teaches about Atman, but many were falling into the trap of trying to grasp a permanent personal self. So Buddha taught anatman - the lack of permanent self. These are just terms used to point at what-is...and what is is not atman, nor anatman, nor both, nor neither.

When I use the term "Self"...I am not saying a permanent, personal self. I could have just as easily said there is That and no other.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by eputkonen

Nonduality does not mean non-differentiation and homogeneity of experience....

Since 'nonduality' is a contradiction in terms and therefore cannot exist from a rational perspective obviously from an irrational perspective it may mean everything depending on the belief of a believer.

Originally Posted by eputkonen

Nonduality does not mean non-differentiation and homogeneity of experience. Think of the ocean. Under water it is all ocean…there is no other…and yet there are different currents, hot and cold spots, etc. ...

yes but in the depth of the ocean there is no movement while on its surface there may be waves caused by winds. Also think of the mirror: the mirror has the potentiality to reflect everything without differentiating anything that it reflects.

[Jyotir]

Hi eputkonen,


If I understand you correctly...
What you are stating seems obvious to many, myself included.

Consistent with that, Sri Aurobindo provides accordingly, some cogent criticism regarding the deficiencies of Advaita philoshophy. These critiques are scattered throughout his writings, however a good place to start and perhaps the most condensed statement of this premise is found in the following excerpt (with my emphasis on the key point) from his seminal work on Integral Yoga, "The Synthesis of Yoga" (which I highly recommend reading).

(see my thread here at SF about this book)

Here, he clearly makes the distinction between the 'traditional' bias of Advaita (and other implicitly similar), vs. what a truly integral approach to Oneness would entail without this bias or conventional prejudice.

The soul thus possesses itself in the unity of Sachchidananda upon all the manifest planes of its own being. This is the characteristic of the integral knowledge that it unifies all in Sachchidananda because not only is Being one in itself, but it is one everywhere, in all its poises and in every aspect, in its utmost appearance of mutiplicity as in its utmost appearance of oneness. The traditional knowledge while it admits this truth in theory, yet reasons practically as if the oneness were not equal everywhere or could not be equally realised in all. It finds it in the unmanifest Absolute, but not so much in the manifestation, finds it purer in the Impersonal than in the Personal, complete in the Nirguna, not so complete in the Saguna, satisfyingly present in the silent and inactive Brahman, not so satisfyingly present in the active. Therefore it places all these other terms of the Absolute below their opposites in the scale of ascent and urges their final rejection as if it were indispensable to the utter realisation.

The integral knowledge makes no such division; it arrives at a different kind of absoluteness in its vision of the unity. It finds the same oneness in the Unmanifest and the Manifest, in the Impersonal and the Personal, in Nirguna and Saguna, in the infinite depths of the universal silence and the infinite largeness of the universal action. It finds the same absolute oneness in the Purusha and the prakriti, in the divine Presence and the works of the divine Power and Knowledge, in the eternal manifestness of the one Purusha and the constant manifestation of the many Purushas; in the inalienable unity of Sachchidananda keeping constantly real to itself its own manifold oneness and in the apparent divisions of mind, life and body in which oneness is constantly, if secretly real and constantly seeks to be realised. All unity is to it an intense, pure and infinite realisation, all difference an abundant, rich and boundless realisation of the same divine and eternal Being.

- Sri Aurobindo, The Synthesis of Yoga, Part 2, Chapter 16, “Oneness”, paragraph 2
direct link to entire chapter on Oneness

btw,

'saguna' refers to with form/qualities;
'nirguna' = without form/without qualities.

Hope this is helpful for the purpose of this discussion,

~ J

[eputkonen]

Originally Posted by Ground

Yes but in the depth of the ocean there is no movement while on its surface there may be waves caused by winds. Also think of the mirror: the mirror has the potentiality to reflect everything without differentiating anything that it reflects.

Perhaps, but the ocean also does not have a will of its own...and so it was just an analogy to point that in endless water there can still be differentiation and variety. THAT has a will and creates the motion within itself.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by eputkonen

...and so it was just an analogy to point that in endless water there can still be differentiation and variety. THAT has a will and creates the motion within itself.

That's the view characteristic of theistic believers. There are two kinds of theistic beliefs: one kind personifies its object of belief and the other kind doesn't personify its object of belief.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by eputkonen

Nonduality does not mean non-differentiation and homogeneity of experience. Think of the ocean. Under water it is all ocean…there is no other…and yet there are different currents, hot and cold spots, etc. The hot and cold spots are not separate or other than the ocean. The various currents are not other than the ocean. One current goes straight North...another swirls and meanders East...it doesn't matter as it is all ocean. So even in endless water…there is variation and happenings. The world is even more complex of an appearance and happening…and yet there is no separation. There is the Self and no other.

That is why people believe god is the "one" when all life is the "one" source and connection created through the many facets of creation as we know creation can be.

If you believe all creation, all life is "one source" you can imagine yourself as the ocean, hot and cold spots are not separate in you, just a changing affect through your awareness of such things.. It is all in you experiencing that ongoing.. The currents and flow of you and others moves itself but it all comes from creation, just moving differently. People moving in all directions doesn't mean "one" is separate from the other, in the differing of each creation creating a life here, it just means life moves in all ways of itself aware and unaware..

I have experienced an altered reality where I have experienced such things more directly where I "experienced" myself as the inter related relationship through an open multi level interconnected stream of life occurring.. Of course I could only notice where I was and experiencing myself, but it was big enough (and world wide) to show me how the whole was moving as one source..

I can enter that space if I choose to notice, but now I am aware I don't have too. I just accept it, because it was showing how to live a more responsible aware life, connected deeper in myself and open to life in that way "aware".. My involvement is now I am "aware" differently to what I thought previously..






That said. I don't really know....because life goes on. :)

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by sky123

In Buddhism non-duality ( Advaita ) teaches there is not self, what is ' the self and no other ' ?

The Self as per Advaita in Hinduism means pure awareness.

Awareness in Advaita and emptiness in Buddhism mean the same thing. The essence is the same , it is just the expressions that vary.

[eputkonen]

Originally Posted by Ground

That's the view characteristic of theistic believers. There are two kinds of theistic beliefs: one kind personifies its object of belief and the other kind doesn't personify its object of belief.

Not necessary. Buddhism's THAT does not infer a theistic belief. Actually, theism and not-theism is dualistic. What I am talking about is nonduality.