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  #21  
Old 16-05-2019, 09:57 PM
bartholomew
Posts: n/a
 
That's quite a statement. Mind if I comment? The great difficulty that we tend to have in considering esoteria is that we are too closely bound by our lower, rational minds. We humans tend to think in terms of our personalities. If we can first disregard our inclination to think of ourselves in terms of self consciousness personalities. Forget all this for a time. Disregard the idea of "nothing" through the realization that it is quite impossible. What we call nothingness is only a wall constructed by our lower brain minds. It is an illusion. If we use our lower rational minds to sort out consciousness we usually end up with something that is built around and to suit the personality. This, too, is an illusion. If we remove everything from our world including human awareness there will still be consciousness. But with everything else gone what will it look like? Think of consciousness as a force field which permeates and conditions according to the ability of that which is affected by it. This field is universal. That is why even a single sub atomic particle is conscious. We are self conscious only because our brains are sufficiently complex. The brain is capable of resonating with a greater amount of consciousness than is an atom. A master soul is more capable still. Those great ones that we sometimes call gods are even more capable. But all of these examples exists in the very same universal field which we call consciousness. Think of it as a force field. Kind of like "the force" of Star Wars.

The proper way to discern consciousness is to shift up out of the lower rational mind and into the higher abstract. It is, in reality, channeling. In this state our awareness is now of a higher order. We are in the mid to high end of the astral plane or, for some of us, higher yet. The thing that is so special about this is that we now are functioning in a higher state of consciousness. See? As we go up through dimensions we become more conscious. So. Don't use your lower mind to try to sort all this out. Shift up first into the next higher dimension. Here we find that our personalities no longer filter what is sensed. Things become clearer. In a higher dimension we transcend "nothiingness". We see it for what it is, an illusion. Nothingness, the idea of nothing, is only a lower mind saying that it is unable to comprehend further.

The Buddhists say that we swim in a sea of illusion. They know perfectly well that the boundaries of this ocean are set by our human personalities and nothing else. Leave the personality mind behind and soar with the gods.

What do you think?

James/Bartholomew




Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
It gets a bit tricky in my mind. I am not sure consciousness can have a direct experience of itself. Rather I am aware of my consciousness as that object that is aware of all of these subjects, even if the subject is an abstract notion of my own consciousness. Without any subjects to be conscious of (material or abstract), could I ever be aware that I am. I mean, the experience of I is an abstraction, deduced as the object that is aware of the experience of the many different subjects. We hear that our true nature is nothingness, but we create an abstraction of what nothingness is within our own consciousness for us to be aware of. We don't know ourselves as nothing, but an abstraction of what nothingness is (which is inherently contradictory to nothing, as that abstraction is a something). The existence of the object and all of the subjects are always linked as one, can't really know one without the other, material or abstract, form or formless, its all one, only perspective changes.

I suppose we look to channels, mediums, guru's, etc.. to give us a means to reach beyond the limitations of our own present moment self created realities. Not realizing that we can never experience anything beyond our own present moment reality, and that it is a matter of what we chose to be aware of (conscious of) in the eternal present moment that perpetually defines and re-defines our reality.

On the other hand, perhaps these channels, mediums, and gurus, are just one way our consciousness uses to re-define and expand the reality of our current experience (a prop or vehicle of sorts). A way our own consciousness uses to bring information into our current reality story without leaving it. Similar to the role that impressions and memories of a protagonist are used to bring narration, backstory or exposition into a story without pushing the reader out. In that sense, a psychologist may be just another type of channel to bring information to us about the workings and limitations of the human form we have accepted as our own present moment reality. They say the teacher will appear when the student is ready. Perhaps another way of saying this is that the student creates the teacher (in many different forms) when they need something to bring the information into their present moment reality.
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  #22  
Old 17-05-2019, 03:50 AM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartholomew
That's quite a statement. Mind if I comment? The great difficulty that we tend to have in considering esoteria is that we are too closely bound by our lower, rational minds. We humans tend to think in terms of our personalities. If we can first disregard our inclination to think of ourselves in terms of self consciousness personalities. Forget all this for a time. Disregard the idea of "nothing" through the realization that it is quite impossible. What we call nothingness is only a wall constructed by our lower brain minds. It is an illusion. If we use our lower rational minds to sort out consciousness we usually end up with something that is built around and to suit the personality. This, too, is an illusion. If we remove everything from our world including human awareness there will still be consciousness. But with everything else gone what will it look like? Think of consciousness as a force field which permeates and conditions according to the ability of that which is affected by it. This field is universal. That is why even a single sub atomic particle is conscious. We are self conscious only because our brains are sufficiently complex. The brain is capable of resonating with a greater amount of consciousness than is an atom. A master soul is more capable still. Those great ones that we sometimes call gods are even more capable. But all of these examples exists in the very same universal field which we call consciousness. Think of it as a force field. Kind of like "the force" of Star Wars.

The proper way to discern consciousness is to shift up out of the lower rational mind and into the higher abstract. It is, in reality, channeling. In this state our awareness is now of a higher order. We are in the mid to high end of the astral plane or, for some of us, higher yet. The thing that is so special about this is that we now are functioning in a higher state of consciousness. See? As we go up through dimensions we become more conscious. So. Don't use your lower mind to try to sort all this out. Shift up first into the next higher dimension. Here we find that our personalities no longer filter what is sensed. Things become clearer. In a higher dimension we transcend "nothiingness". We see it for what it is, an illusion. Nothingness, the idea of nothing, is only a lower mind saying that it is unable to comprehend further.

The Buddhists say that we swim in a sea of illusion. They know perfectly well that the boundaries of this ocean are set by our human personalities and nothing else. Leave the personality mind behind and soar with the gods.

What do you think?

James/Bartholomew

I guess I don't have a problem with higher or lower mind, or higher or lower self, as long as it is not implying better or worse mind/self. The higher we are the further we can see, but the lower we are the more detail we can discern. Different yet complementary perspectives, neither better than the other. My personality, flawed as it is, gives me the perspective of a person, with all the ups and downs, joy and pain, that come with it. A perspective up close and personal, direct and visceral, one that I cannot experience from high above looking down.

Quote:
The Tao is both named and nameless
As nameless it is the origin of all things;
as named it is the Mother of 10,000 things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery;
ever desiring, one sees only the manifestations.
And the mystery itself is the doorway to all understanding.
Lao-tzu

I had not heard that buddhist saying but I do like it. We do swim in a sea of illusion, we create that illusion, and we are that illusion, and that illusion is as real in any given moment as anything can be in any moment. Though we can only experience the nothing that we are as an abstract idea, it is because we are no thing, that we can create any thing within that void, and if we wish, become and experience it, as self. The self is a mystery when we try to experience it directly, but through the experience of the objects, one can come to know the subject as the experiencer.
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  #23  
Old 17-05-2019, 04:21 AM
bartholomew
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
I The higher we are the further we can see, but the lower we are the more detail we can discern.


My only comment is regarding this sentence. If we are high above the ground we see a broader field but from down lower the details are clearer. But... When I think of higher I envision greater awareness, ability to discern. Higher, to me, means a higher spiritual plane. If this is the case then details are much more easily discerned. This is because of the increased degree of consciousness.

Thanks... Interesting.

James
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  #24  
Old 19-05-2019, 08:07 AM
HITESH SHAH HITESH SHAH is offline
Master
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,295
 
science and spirituality

Quote:
Originally Posted by bartholomew
[color="DarkGreen"]The below is based on the belief in the existence of a single creative force and a vast, multilayered series of planes upon which beings subordinate to that guiding source exist and that there is a single great "will" which guides all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bartholomew
The human mind is kin to the Father's but it is very much separated from and inferior to it. We tend to tend to think in separatist terms. Because we live in and are beings of the physical universe this is all that we can see. Our vision is greatly limited. Standing in opposition to these barriers are those who believe in a supreme being which created. We thus find science in opposition to faith (religion). We argue back and forth all the time. Who is right? I'm right! No, I am right! etc etc.... very foolish. Believers claim that God created but they do not know what existed before the creation. Science knows full well that something cannot come from nothing, that indeed "nothing' is illogical and impossible, but since no spiritual planes have ever been quantified they are incapable of incorporating "god" into their scheme of things.

The immediate argument is defined by the tension between creation and evolution. The truth is that both are correct. God created. God then instituted evolution which has been in evidence ever since physical time began some 15 billion years ago. This is the truth of it. Complicating this is the fact that long ago human beings began to tell stories about the beginnings of the world. For countless thousands of years these grew in the telling. Mixed in with this was and is the fact that others from far away have been visiting and guiding the Earth (again by God's design). These off worlders are God's children too. We mustn't forget that. It was they who began their activities with the Earth long ago when our seas were yet acidic. They brought to this planet the simple life forms which they placed in the warm shallow seas. Biological life on Earth came from other planets far away. But then such forms were adapted through Earth evolution to be compatible with this world. It was they, by direction of God (this story is much more complicated than we have time here to discuss) who caused the Cambrian explosion. It was they who modified proto human beings making then suddenly the more advanced types we find today. It was they, under God, who caused one species of humans to replace other older types. It is they who are at work yet today with the Earth. They continue to guide what they began, under God. This is the truth behind the stories of abductions etc etc... They, the watchers, under God, are doing what they have been doing since the early days of our planet.

The trouble is that we look at this reality through two filters. One is science which will not speak of things it cannot observe. The others is the creative force of God which is a matter of belief through various religions. One requires knowledge. The other requires faith. If they could but only realize it though they would see that faith, when looked at more closely and openly, becomes firm knowledge. Science and faith are perfectly compatible. The two dovetail in all respects. Where science fails, faith leads. It is simple and elegant. On Earth we cannot seem to have a belief in God in any pure sense. We are compelled to do so through the structure of a Religion. This necessitates the need for identifiable authority. Thus we find religions each with it's own traditions and authorities in existence. We should remember that in the spiritual worlds there are no religions. No scriptures no requirements that we hold any particular beliefs. Only here on Earth are such things needed and that is because of the inadequacy of our minds which are only a shade of a copy of a shadow of that used by any high spiritual being (under the ultimate God).

We err greatly when we insist upon believing literally the words of any religious scriptures. Yes. Such ideas originate from on high but they are filtered and distorted as they pass lower and lower and finally through the imperfect mind of man. And then they are written for posterity. All religions are thus affected. If scriptures were perfect they would not exist in plurality. There would be but one. But the minds of man are imperfect and so we tend to believe that only our particular set of scriptures are the Words of God and that the rest are imperfect. Before we will come to understand higher truths we have to set all this aside. When we do we will find that we suddenly understand how creation and evolution both result from the intelligent design of God the creator. It is all so very simple. But to see it we have to set aside our man made inclination for separative thinking.

Religions as they are today will one day be set aside. Science will one day embrace the reality of the spiritual realms. The two will become one. There is much more to be said on this subject. Here is not the place for such expansions of thought. For our older cousins, the off worlders, a combination of science and religion exists. They have conflicts too but they are of a higher order. They do not suffer as we do.

The human mind is in it's infancy. The off worlders know this. It is they, under direction of God the Father, who have been working incessantly to help us along. When our minds are suitably developed we will successfully merge science and God. Only a few at at time manage to arrive at this point in evolution. At any time on Earth most people are yet too young. They cannot see clearly. For them faith is a requirement. Others, though, know that faith grows until it becomes knowledge. This, too, is a part of God's intelligent design and plan for humanity.

Science is not the realm of atheists. There are many believers in science but they are constrained by the requirement that they be able to quantify and demonstrate in a physical sense and that these must be correlated independently by other scientists before they can become science theories (accepted as being factual until more is known and they are replaced). Albert Einstein once said: "I want to know God's thoughts. The rest are details".

Wonderful and well said . Still reading the other thread. But this opening thread itself is extremely wonderful.

We can view sciences (all material sciences and social like politics , psychology , economics , anthropology etc) as rules of God which works on its own on auto-pilot mode. Though many may not consider ethics & spirituality to be social sciences , I do consider it also as sciences (having its own cause and effect with implied subjectivity and remoteness of co-relation though ). Ethics is not only His rules of the game but also His 'Will' which he can fulfill through myriad ways and which can bring Him into play through his 'off worlders' (whom Hindu followers call Avatar - re-incarnated God) .
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  #25  
Old 19-05-2019, 08:10 AM
HITESH SHAH HITESH SHAH is offline
Master
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,295
 
science and spirituality

Quote:
Originally Posted by bartholomew
[color="DarkGreen"]The below is based on the belief in the existence of a single creative force and a vast, multilayered series of planes upon which beings subordinate to that guiding source exist and that there is a single great "will" which guides all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bartholomew
The human mind is kin to the Father's but it is very much separated from and inferior to it. We tend to tend to think in separatist terms. Because we live in and are beings of the physical universe this is all that we can see. Our vision is greatly limited. Standing in opposition to these barriers are those who believe in a supreme being which created. We thus find science in opposition to faith (religion). We argue back and forth all the time. Who is right? I'm right! No, I am right! etc etc.... very foolish. Believers claim that God created but they do not know what existed before the creation. Science knows full well that something cannot come from nothing, that indeed "nothing' is illogical and impossible, but since no spiritual planes have ever been quantified they are incapable of incorporating "god" into their scheme of things.

The immediate argument is defined by the tension between creation and evolution. The truth is that both are correct. God created. God then instituted evolution which has been in evidence ever since physical time began some 15 billion years ago. This is the truth of it. Complicating this is the fact that long ago human beings began to tell stories about the beginnings of the world. For countless thousands of years these grew in the telling. Mixed in with this was and is the fact that others from far away have been visiting and guiding the Earth (again by God's design). These off worlders are God's children too. We mustn't forget that. It was they who began their activities with the Earth long ago when our seas were yet acidic. They brought to this planet the simple life forms which they placed in the warm shallow seas. Biological life on Earth came from other planets far away. But then such forms were adapted through Earth evolution to be compatible with this world. It was they, by direction of God (this story is much more complicated than we have time here to discuss) who caused the Cambrian explosion. It was they who modified proto human beings making then suddenly the more advanced types we find today. It was they, under God, who caused one species of humans to replace other older types. It is they who are at work yet today with the Earth. They continue to guide what they began, under God. This is the truth behind the stories of abductions etc etc... They, the watchers, under God, are doing what they have been doing since the early days of our planet.

The trouble is that we look at this reality through two filters. One is science which will not speak of things it cannot observe. The others is the creative force of God which is a matter of belief through various religions. One requires knowledge. The other requires faith. If they could but only realize it though they would see that faith, when looked at more closely and openly, becomes firm knowledge. Science and faith are perfectly compatible. The two dovetail in all respects. Where science fails, faith leads. It is simple and elegant. On Earth we cannot seem to have a belief in God in any pure sense. We are compelled to do so through the structure of a Religion. This necessitates the need for identifiable authority. Thus we find religions each with it's own traditions and authorities in existence. We should remember that in the spiritual worlds there are no religions. No scriptures no requirements that we hold any particular beliefs. Only here on Earth are such things needed and that is because of the inadequacy of our minds which are only a shade of a copy of a shadow of that used by any high spiritual being (under the ultimate God).

We err greatly when we insist upon believing literally the words of any religious scriptures. Yes. Such ideas originate from on high but they are filtered and distorted as they pass lower and lower and finally through the imperfect mind of man. And then they are written for posterity. All religions are thus affected. If scriptures were perfect they would not exist in plurality. There would be but one. But the minds of man are imperfect and so we tend to believe that only our particular set of scriptures are the Words of God and that the rest are imperfect. Before we will come to understand higher truths we have to set all this aside. When we do we will find that we suddenly understand how creation and evolution both result from the intelligent design of God the creator. It is all so very simple. But to see it we have to set aside our man made inclination for separative thinking.

Religions as they are today will one day be set aside. Science will one day embrace the reality of the spiritual realms. The two will become one. There is much more to be said on this subject. Here is not the place for such expansions of thought. For our older cousins, the off worlders, a combination of science and religion exists. They have conflicts too but they are of a higher order. They do not suffer as we do.

The human mind is in it's infancy. The off worlders know this. It is they, under direction of God the Father, who have been working incessantly to help us along. When our minds are suitably developed we will successfully merge science and God. Only a few at at time manage to arrive at this point in evolution. At any time on Earth most people are yet too young. They cannot see clearly. For them faith is a requirement. Others, though, know that faith grows until it becomes knowledge. This, too, is a part of God's intelligent design and plan for humanity.

Science is not the realm of atheists. There are many believers in science but they are constrained by the requirement that they be able to quantify and demonstrate in a physical sense and that these must be correlated independently by other scientists before they can become science theories (accepted as being factual until more is known and they are replaced). Albert Einstein once said: "I want to know God's thoughts. The rest are details".

Wonderful and well said . Still reading the other thread. But this opening thread itself is extremely wonderful.

We can view sciences (all material sciences and social like politics , psychology , economics , anthropology etc) as rules of God which works on its own on auto-pilot mode. Though many may not consider ethics & spirituality to be social sciences , I do consider it also as sciences (having its own cause and effect with implied subjectivity and remoteness of co-relation though ). Ethics is not only His rules of the game but also His 'Will' which he can fulfill through myriad ways and which can bring Him into play through his 'off worlders' (whom Hindu followers call Avatar - literally mean coming down of God) .
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  #26  
Old 19-05-2019, 10:51 AM
bartholomew
Posts: n/a
 
Where would we be if we had no idea of ethics or spirituality? If we omit these from our consideration of social science where will we put them? I agree that they belong in that discipline.

Wonder becomes faith which eventually morphs into sure knowledge. This is the way I see these kinds of relationships. For those who dispute creation vs evolution I suggest that science takes us back to the time of the creation (big bang) but is then necessarily replaced by faith which helps us to continues the journey. The boundary is fluid though. As we learn more the finite marker is moved a bit further away. This is what makes the whole of it so very elegant. The great soul who was Plato considered this very same dynamic but I don't know if he ever wrote about it.

Einstein once said: "I want to know God's thoughts. The rest are details".

Good reply... thanks

James



Quote:
Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH
Wonderful and well said . Still reading the other thread. But this opening thread itself is extremely wonderful.

We can view sciences (all material sciences and social like politics , psychology , economics , anthropology etc) as rules of God which works on its own on auto-pilot mode. Though many may not consider ethics & spirituality to be social sciences , I do consider it also as sciences (having its own cause and effect with implied subjectivity and remoteness of co-relation though ). Ethics is not only His rules of the game but also His 'Will' which he can fulfill through myriad ways and which can bring Him into play through his 'off worlders' (whom Hindu followers call Avatar - literally mean coming down of God) .
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  #27  
Old 22-05-2019, 08:52 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartholomew
My only comment is regarding this sentence. If we are high above the ground we see a broader field but from down lower the details are clearer. But... When I think of higher I envision greater awareness, ability to discern. Higher, to me, means a higher spiritual plane. If this is the case then details are much more easily discerned. This is because of the increased degree of consciousness.

Thanks... Interesting.

James




Yes, I see where you are coming from with "Higher" self.



I think to me it is not a matter of whether it is "higher" (or better?) to discern the details vs seeing the big picture, but in experiencing both, we can perhaps come to see the connection, the "oneness", of all things. Zoomed out (so to speak) and we see everything as one big thing, zoomed in (so to speak) and things appear as separate things. It is the relationship of everything to everything else that ties it all into the one. The separation is real as an experience, yet an illusion from a different perspective.
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  #28  
Old 22-05-2019, 09:34 PM
bartholomew
Posts: n/a
 
Einstein used to use trains to demonstrate the fluidity of perception. I think of oneness as being a sort of lowest common denominator. And what do I then find? Consciousness. This is the reason I write so much about it.

Interesting...



Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
Yes, I see where you are coming from with "Higher" self.



I think to me it is not a matter of whether it is "higher" (or better?) to discern the details vs seeing the big picture, but in experiencing both, we can perhaps come to see the connection, the "oneness", of all things. Zoomed out (so to speak) and we see everything as one big thing, zoomed in (so to speak) and things appear as separate things. It is the relationship of everything to everything else that ties it all into the one. The separation is real as an experience, yet an illusion from a different perspective.
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  #29  
Old 23-05-2019, 05:57 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartholomew
Einstein used to use trains to demonstrate the fluidity of perception. I think of oneness as being a sort of lowest common denominator. And what do I then find? Consciousness. This is the reason I write so much about it.

Interesting...




Very interesting! There is an increasing convergence of physics and eastern spiritualism. This makes sense if one considers that they are both engaged in observing the same thing, consciousness. Einstein showed us that space and time are relative to the observer. Quantum mechanics shows us that the manifestation of matter is dependent upon observation. Reality it would seem is relative to the observer. It is not something independent, but rather that which we create within our own consciousness, and however similar our created realities may by, each point of consciousness, has its own.
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  #30  
Old 23-05-2019, 10:49 PM
bartholomew
Posts: n/a
 
Science apparently considers consciousness to be something that results from certain factors. It's awfully hard to reconcile science and spirituality. Maybe bring physicists and psychologists together will help. There will be a breakthrough though. Our ability to reason tells us that there must be something to the idea of ESP. The military is not a group of chowderheads. They would not mess around with remote viewing if there wasn't something to it and what is this "thing"? (It is my contention that they purposefully deceive when they say they have given this area of interest up) Start at the beginning, the principle upon which we may measure all else. Consciousness is a field upon which all universes are constructed. Each form in creation be it spiritual or physical (just different dimensions or densities so some in India) is affected by the field according to it's particular design. If the Christians only knew how correct they were by using that word. Science attributes consciousness only to biological forms. This is an error that they will have to discover and when they do they will suddenly realize the validity of the subtle realms (other dimensions). All of a sudden medicine will be interested in auras (and it's about time). Then, slowly, all the pieces will fall into place. The word "quantum" (which is now a word which describes ideas no one knows how else to quantify) will then be fulfilled. There will also be a "quantum" math. Newtonian logic will not suffice. Here's a hint. We will learn to think in curving space. This ability will answer the new requirements for understanding. (This is the secret to the suspected boundaries of our physical universe. (there are no straight lines in space, only curves ((because of the relativity of time)). Spiritual growth is naught but a very long series of realizations. The most profound of these occurs along to way when, suddenly, we seem to know that what God really is. Expressed in simplest terms this field of consciousness is the body of the source (God). When certain mystics say that God holds all in the palm of His hand this is what they refer to.

A curious thing will then happen. The arguments between science and religion will cease to be about evolution vs creation. Now it will be about the nature of the source. Science will see it as some sort of self sustaining "creative field". Religion will continue to insist upon the existence of a single magnificent entity whose Will directs all. But they will require a little less faith. But see, at this point we will find that the barrier between knowledge and faith has been pushed back even more. This is good. We move up the evolutionary scale. A bit further to go and we will be nearing our elder brothers and sisters who zip around in flying saucers. ha ha....

Wonder becomes faith which morphs to knowledge which results, through application, in wisdom. Viewed as an ever receding target our minds chase the goal acquiring ever increasing degrees of consciousness along the way.

Note: It is interesting here to remind that we have been told by both the offworlders and by those who are "reverse engineering" their craft that those vessels have consciousness of their own and that they are controlled by the "pilot/navigator" using his/her mind alone. If what we suspect about consciousness is true, if it is truly a universal principle, might not this be the case?



QUOTE=ketzer]Very interesting! There is an increasing convergence of physics and eastern spiritualism. This makes sense if one considers that they are both engaged in observing the same thing, consciousness. Einstein showed us that space and time are relative to the observer. Quantum mechanics shows us that the manifestation of matter is dependent upon observation. Reality it would seem is relative to the observer. It is not something independent, but rather that which we create within our own consciousness, and however similar our created realities may by, each point of consciousness, has its own.[/quote]
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