Tell Me about Witches...

So do you all beleive there can be such a thing as monotheistic wise folk (witches) ?

Is the Lord and Lady thing a Gardener belief or does it go back to something else?

nightowl

[norseman]

This is grey area. I wear a triple goddess amulet which is a moon symbol but serve Mother Earth.
I think the easiest distinction to make is that Gardner formalised Lord and Lady in a religion but many wiccans then take it further and use goddesses from other pantheons e.g. Diana, Astarte, etc. Gardner used bits and pieces from all over the place.

Originally Posted by nightowl

So do you all beleive there can be such a thing as monotheistic wise folk (witches) ?

Is the Lord and Lady thing a Gardener belief or does it go back to something else?

nightowl

I would say there are witches out there that believe in just the Goddess, some that connect just to a male energy, some both and there will be some that don't believe in any higher power at all.

In my personal definition of "witch" there is no assured spirituality, they are people who work spells and the like to bend the world to their will. Where they get their energy from, what their motivation is, how they do it will all be personal.

I don't intend to dissagree with Norseman here but I feel it is important to remember that the meaning of a word is not just based on where the word comes from, it is also (if I dare say "more") about the meaning that people now assign to it. It is not important what people hundreds of years ago thought the word "witch" meant when we are talking about what people think a witch is now.

It is very interesting though where a word comes from and can add to a personal definition of the word...

I personally, as a pagan, relate to a concept of Mother Earth and Father Sky as a duality that could relate to the Lord and Lady you talk about. I believe that the concept of a male and female energies go waaaay back, if you look at history there are many polytheistic religions that have gods and goddesses.

Remember, Gardner took from a number of sources, this doesn't make what he wrote is invalid, just nothing new in many cases.

[norseman]

"I don't intend to dissagree with Norseman here"

It is certainly true that the Earth Mother and Father Sky are as old as mankind itself. Doni [Earth Mother figure] have been dredged off the bottom of the North Sea and that flooded around 6000 BC. This duality is yin yang.

"Gardner took from a number of sources, this doesn't make what he wrote is invalid, just nothing new in many cases."
This is one thing we will have to disagree on and move on. The CORE of wicca is old craft but the rest is just packaging. Dont forget that Gardner himself called his new faith New Witchcraft, not wicca. His intent was to attract more people by adding an air of mystique [covens] and exclusivity [initiation]

Originally Posted by norseman

"Gardner took from a number of sources, this doesn't make what he wrote is invalid, just nothing new in many cases."
This is one thing we will have to disagree on and move on. The CORE of wicca is old craft but the rest is just packaging. Dont forget that Gardner himself called his new faith New Witchcraft, not wicca. His intent was to attract more people by adding an air of mystique [covens] and exclusivity [initiation]

That's cool, I don't claim to know anything really about Gardner other than it's nothing new.. you da man when it comes to the history side of things

Thank you both for your responses. All of this dialogue has been very helpful to me personally. Please feel free to share anything else you think would add to the great info on this thread.

"In my personal definition of "witch" there is no assured spirituality, they are people who work spells and the like to bend the world to their will. Where they get their energy from, what their motivation is, how they do it will all be personal."

Tilla,

I think this statement really kind of speaks to many peoples personal beliefs and practices whether they call themselves witches, wiccan, lightworker and so on, because in seeking spiritual influences in ones life, doesn't a person in a sense seek to bend or manipulate the spiritual energy they encounter for whatever purposes a person has come to believe is part of their personal religion?





nightowl

[norseman]

Gerald Gardner. Not by me but I am not telling who I move in mysterious circles

Gardner was a complicated person. He did invent what is now 'Wicca', although he spelt it with one c. He threw it together as an amalgam of Freemasonry, Golden Dawn, Qabala, Rosicrucianism and Aleister Crowley's teachings, as well as the practical stuff from the New Forest Coven.

Dorothy Clutterbuck was long thought to be an invention of Gardner, but intensive searching has unearthed her Birth Certificate in the New Forest area.

This Coven is reputed to be the one which (with the blessing of the Powers that Were) performed ritual to stop the Invasion of mainland Britain by Hitler's troops during WW2. One member of the Coven died during this ritual, (whether by natural means or as a sacrifice nobody knows). This was still at a time when the Witchcraft Act was in force, it was not repealed until 1951, and the celebrated medium, Helen Duncan ,(erroneously called Britain's last Witch) was the last person prosecuted under that Act.

Wicca was Gardner's attempt to bring witchcraft into the open, in a ritual form which would be acceptable to the masses.

Witchcraft itself, the Craft of the Wisewoman and Cunning Man, is as old as the hills themselves, being shamanistic in origin, but Wicca is 'Modern Witchcraft', and has little similarity to it's ancient forebear. There are wisewomen and cunning men still, but they tend to exist in the country rather than towns, quietly doing what they have always done.

Gardner himself was a paradox, he was an ordained Priest of one of the obscure CelticChristianChurches, and a confirmed Naturist, a member of the naturist club Spielplatz, which is still active today and has a website! He was friends with many of the occultists of the day, notably Philip Ross Nichols, (founder of the largest Druid Order in the world) who was also a Spielplatz member, and an ordained Priest of another CelticChurch. Together these two established the current Festival Cycle that Pagans now use, (It is a combination of the Agricultural Festivals which the Wiccans used, Samhain, Imbolc, Beltane and Lughnasadh, and the Solar observances of the Druids {Solstices and Equinoxes}).

Many of the rituals that Coven Wiccans currently use are lifted almost verbatim from Golden Dawn, Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism and Qabala. Coven Wicca seems to be on it's way out, many Wiccans nowadays following a much simplified Book of Shadows published by many authors today and the wisdom is greatly watered down from Gardner's original. Very few Wiccans nowadays celebrate skyclad, as is stated in the Charge of the Goddess, in fact the Charge itself has lessened in importance nowadays.

With the amount of information currently available, Wicca is becoming diluted from what it used to be, becoming mixed with knowledge from other Paths. When there are groups around, they are nearly all Working Groups of Solitaries who like to get together occasionally.

A true Coven is like a Family, the HPS and HP are Mother and Father of the group, responsible for the welfare of all the members. They set the rules, and are responsible for the overall education of the membership, and it isn't an easy job, it is a heavy responsibility, in which they expect dedication, loyalty and confidentiality from their members.

[Topaz]

I'm reading a brilliant book called The source by Ursula James . It's a autobiography about how Mother Shipton ( witch )came to her and ordered her to write a book about rituals and magic in every day life . It's fantastic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Shipton



Here is a link to her book http://www.ursulajames.com/thesource/index.html

Originally Posted by Topaz

I'm reading a brilliant book called The source by Ursula James . It's a autobiography about how Mother Shipton ( witch )came to her and ordered her to write a book about rituals and magic in every day life . It's fantastic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Shipton



Here is a link to her book http://www.ursulajames.com/thesource/index.html

Hey Topaz,

This does sound interesting, thanks for the links as well...I will be checking them out.

nightowl

[Topaz]

Originally Posted by nightowl

Hey Topaz,

This does sound interesting, thanks for the links as well...I will be checking them out.

nightowl

My pleasure .. it's a great read x