The Forest - the Chain Saw - and the Seedling

[Sunshine111]

Originally Posted by zorkchop

inavalan . . .

We all live in a endless sea of Consciousness. The fact that it is often portrayed as an Ocean has much basis. This endless sea is distinctive by recognizable levels . . . due to vibration. I would bet that none of this is new to you.

What makes these layers or levels so mysterious is that you cannot make great inroads into the deeper areas without profound inner changes in perception of the individual. Just as a 3rd grader cannot “see” the perceptions or level of consciousness of a high school graduate . . . so goes the various levels of consciousness. Since like attracts like . . . we are drawn into the level of consciousness according to our beliefs and habits . . . which we hold dear from lifetime to lifetime . . . and it takes forever to make real changes to “advance” to the next level . . . so to speak.

So . . . higher consciousness is just beyond our perception because we cannot see beyond our current state of consciousness without putting in disciplined effort to even *begin* to see into that area in the first place . . . and . . . as we first catch glimpses . . . we let go of the old and slowly test out the new . . . and eventually we attain the “new” level . . . only to do it all over again . . . deeper still.

Some Truths are purposively hidden from the masses because they are simply not ready for it . . . they wouldn’t know what to do with it . . . and could do great harm to themselves or to those around them. Give a 3rd grader a loaded gun that s/he discovered by accident . . . and that 3rd grader could meet with disastrous results. Just consider . . . what if knowledge of real psychic energies and the greater knowledge of the God Worlds were given to one before they are ready?

All “power” lies within the individual and each learns to live within the level they reside at the time. Eventually they learn what power is . . . and what it is not.

Why can’t we “tune in?”

Most people . . . the vast majority . . . simply don’t want to. The effort involved is more than they wish to put forth. Many simply do not know where to look or how to go about it. When hints and opportunities present themselves . . . they go unrecognized. They are comfortable where they are . . . even with their shortcomings. The familiar outweighs the unknown.

That is why . . . to put in the effort to really . . . REALLY . . . see where one is on the path . . . where they are . . . what general beliefs do they hold that limit them to where they currently are . . . and begin to take steps to move beyond that . . . one step at a time . . . it’s an incredibly slow process until one takes it upon themselves to learn at an advanced level. Lots profess to do this . . . or claim to be doing this . . . but that is part of pulling up and away from the mental areas. The mental levels and those of habit are strong for a reason. One gains strength in dealing with them and pulling away . . . part of the reason for the struggle in the first place.

Society and cultures give us many of our perceptions but they usually are building off of what we bring with us into each incarnation. Overcoming these . . . additionally adds to our strength of conviction and discipline.

Many won’t do anything unless it’s “fun.” Don’t get me wrong . . . it’s part of the Path and one can spend endless lifetimes in the Disneyland levels of life. For as long as it lasts . . . it’s wonderful. More people won’t do anything unless it’s “given freely” to them without effort. I ask . . . just what is that going to teach the individual?

The Path . . . is ruthless. The purification of Self will absolutely blow you apart to the core. it is designed that way. One thing’s for sure . . . you cannot side-step or out-smart LIFE.

And yes . . . on we go.

Very interesting thoughts/conclusions.

[Sunshine111]

Originally Posted by zorkchop

You raise an interesting point. It really doesn’t matter if *we* think or dispute whether it is all “hopeless” or not. The creation of Soul Itself gook place eons ago . . . and LIFE has nothing but time. Each individual can take millions of lifetimes to figure it all out . . . and they can certainly devote a couple of hundred lifetimes to the thought of it all being hopeless.

Soul is THE most powerful creation in all of existence. The only existence above it would be the Core Creator God ITSELF . . . by whatever name one calls it . . . according to where they are on the Path. All the Masters and savants and angels and demons and such . . . as Soul . . . all are created with equal potential. The difference lies in what each has learned and developed in their travels.

My initial post was again . . . purposively vague . . . to urge people to discuss what takes them beyond their current state of consciousness. There is a HUGE bottleneck at the top end of the mental worlds where all try to just stop the thought process and call it enlightenment. This is a paradox . . . for although it is far from enlightenment . . . it is a necessary step. The most powerful creation in all of existence was not “mad” to float about in thoughtlessness . . . yet . . . how long does it take for the individual to figure that out? With eternity to work with . . . numbers are irrelevant.

If there is an “imposition” . . . it was at the moment of the creation of Soul Itself. “Reasons” for that are eventually discovered . . . steps beyond the mental worlds are eventually uncovered through purification . . . and the puzzle pieces eventually come together into a recognizable and understandable picture.

People spend upwards of 90% of their lifetimes in the psychic realms. There are MORE than enough adventures in these areas to keep one occupied for seeming eons. This thread was an option for those that might be considering something beyond yoga . . . beyond thought-stopping meditation . . . beyond “I want this from God” . . . and other countless avenues and alleys to walk down within the psychic realms.

There are more traps than doors in the psychic worlds . . . and again . . . this is by design. Each WILL learn strength and courage eventually. And much more.

And no . . . it is NOT hopeless. There is a way through and out . . . so to speak. But understanding Self . . . taking one beyond the easily accessible studies and routes . . . this takes more lifetimes than one cares to acknowledge. So many times . . . people will not just stop and LOOK. When they try to stop and look inside . . . they can only look to the depth and level of their state of consciousness. To go beyond that takes real devotion and courage. There ARE ways. Or perhaps . . . there ARE directions. That’s why many true Masters are considered to be Wayshowers. They are not here to save. They are here to show the way. To even recognize one when one is standing right in front of you . . . takes a LONG time to earn that right.To ask the ageless questions of “Who am I’ and “What am I here for” while holding too the fads of the day will keep one in the endless loop of birth and death. There are some . . . few, but some . . . who would really like to come to terms with all of that and really begin to walk beyond the masses. There is little company there. That in itself is a huge test of strength and courage.

To begin that thinning process of self-purification . . . to really begin to look beyond those trees . . . takes a certain resolve. I guess I was offering a place for those who are approaching or walking these steps to interact.

Also, very interesting thoughts/conclusions. How does this self-purification takes place and what exactly do you mean by "self-purification"?.

[zorkchop]

Sunshine . . .

Looking at the two quotes at the bottom of your post . . . you are well-acquainted with self-purification. You perceived the worth of building a state of consciousness towards positivity and discipline in holding to the acceptance that Truth is like the Light of the Sun. Somewhere during this lifetime you decided to head in that “direction” . . . towards the beliefs that would heighten your viewpoint . . . and you did so. That . . . is self-purification . . . to that end.

This process would go on and on and on until the individual attains the level of a viable and authentic Master of LIFE. It all depends on where a person “is” at the moment and where they would like to “go.” It is all a learning process. This is nothing new.

The human state of consciousness has tremendous difficulty in perceiving beyond its own boundaries and limitations. This is part of the design. This is similar to accepting that a 3rd grader can only see 3rd grade curriculum. One cannot expect a 3rd grader to perceive high school understanding. A 3rd grade student may open a high school textbook and scan through it . . . but it would be beyond him or her for the most part.

These psychic worlds are the theater of the intellect. It takes absolutely forever for the individual . . . one at a time . . . to realize that the mind is totally and completely capable of designing just about any mental state of consciousness that would convince the individual that they are wherever they wish to be. One can convince themselves that they are a complete God . . . or a complete Satan . . . and anything and everything in between. The mind will grasp at any and all smokescreens and dance-steps to convince itself of its validity. This is NOT . . . repeat . . . NOT a criticism. This is by design. One learns what is actually True by first learning what is NOT true.

While in most any state of consciousness . . . it is almost impossible to see beyonds its own perceptions, constraints, confines. If and when someone wishes to begin that process . . . to “learn beyond themselves” or to set to rest some limitation or detrimental habit . . . this was the purpose of my initial thread.

Most people just want the quick-and-easy way . . . comparatively speaking. They want the short-cut. They want the magic wand. They want the savior to come and “save” them . . . from their own messes . . . myself included. Again . . . NO criticism here.

If a person is in the United States and wishes to travel to Australia . . . there is a LOT of prep work to be done before that can be accomplished successfully. Most people just want to go hop on a plane and fly there . . . and when they arrive . . . they realize they have no passport for entry . . . no money . . . no clothes . . . no knowledge of the geography . . . no reservations . . . etc.

It’s the same thing with personal advancement. People just want . . . cosmic consciousness . . . or a rising kundalini . . . or the power to heal . . . or the ability to levitate . . . or to float about in endless bliss . . . and on and on and on. And for a third time . . . there is NO criticism here. The Path demands that each and every individual go through every one of these “adventures” . . . and many, many more.

In order to safely attain any of these . . . and countless other “levels” . . . one needs to “get ready” for the step. First . . . one needs to SEE where they are in it all.

A built-in feature of the human state of consciousness is that each individual believes that most everyone else believes as they do. Person A believes that People B though Z believes pretty much along the same lines as person A does . . . each according to the individual. When that doesn’t turn out to be true . . . conflict flares. With very few excerptions . . . it will be the *other* person that will be wrong. The defensive ego demands it. Again . . . by design. How much we learn . . . and are kept from learning . . . by this single feature alone. It is staggering.

This has gotten way too wordy. I have retreated from this thread due to lack of interest. I did . . . however . . . feel you deserved some feedback.

I wish you well.

Seems to me the problem is the nature of mind to make things way more complex than they need be, constructing elaborate models and equally elaborate approaches and solutions when in fact the path is actually one of deconstruction. In fact isn't that what your metaphor is all about? Getting mired in the details to the detriment of the big picture?

Tame the habits of mind.

Realize and then live our true nature.

The tasks at hand are method and dedication.

[Sunshine111]

Originally Posted by zorkchop

Sunshine . . .

Looking at the two quotes at the bottom of your post . . . you are well-acquainted with self-purification. You perceived the worth of building a state of consciousness towards positivity and discipline in holding to the acceptance that Truth is like the Light of the Sun. Somewhere during this lifetime you decided to head in that “direction” . . . towards the beliefs that would heighten your viewpoint . . . and you did so. That . . . is self-purification . . . to that end.

This process would go on and on and on until the individual attains the level of a viable and authentic Master of LIFE. It all depends on where a person “is” at the moment and where they would like to “go.” It is all a learning process. This is nothing new.

The human state of consciousness has tremendous difficulty in perceiving beyond its own boundaries and limitations. This is part of the design. This is similar to accepting that a 3rd grader can only see 3rd grade curriculum. One cannot expect a 3rd grader to perceive high school understanding. A 3rd grade student may open a high school textbook and scan through it . . . but it would be beyond him or her for the most part.

These psychic worlds are the theater of the intellect. It takes absolutely forever for the individual . . . one at a time . . . to realize that the mind is totally and completely capable of designing just about any mental state of consciousness that would convince the individual that they are wherever they wish to be. One can convince themselves that they are a complete God . . . or a complete Satan . . . and anything and everything in between. The mind will grasp at any and all smokescreens and dance-steps to convince itself of its validity. This is NOT . . . repeat . . . NOT a criticism. This is by design. One learns what is actually True by first learning what is NOT true.

While in most any state of consciousness . . . it is almost impossible to see beyonds its own perceptions, constraints, confines. If and when someone wishes to begin that process . . . to “learn beyond themselves” or to set to rest some limitation or detrimental habit . . . this was the purpose of my initial thread.

Most people just want the quick-and-easy way . . . comparatively speaking. They want the short-cut. They want the magic wand. They want the savior to come and “save” them . . . from their own messes . . . myself included. Again . . . NO criticism here.

If a person is in the United States and wishes to travel to Australia . . . there is a LOT of prep work to be done before that can be accomplished successfully. Most people just want to go hop on a plane and fly there . . . and when they arrive . . . they realize they have no passport for entry . . . no money . . . no clothes . . . no knowledge of the geography . . . no reservations . . . etc.

It’s the same thing with personal advancement. People just want . . . cosmic consciousness . . . or a rising kundalini . . . or the power to heal . . . or the ability to levitate . . . or to float about in endless bliss . . . and on and on and on. And for a third time . . . there is NO criticism here. The Path demands that each and every individual go through every one of these “adventures” . . . and many, many more.

In order to safely attain any of these . . . and countless other “levels” . . . one needs to “get ready” for the step. First . . . one needs to SEE where they are in it all.

A built-in feature of the human state of consciousness is that each individual believes that most everyone else believes as they do. Person A believes that People B though Z believes pretty much along the same lines as person A does . . . each according to the individual. When that doesn’t turn out to be true . . . conflict flares. With very few excerptions . . . it will be the *other* person that will be wrong. The defensive ego demands it. Again . . . by design. How much we learn . . . and are kept from learning . . . by this single feature alone. It is staggering.

This has gotten way too wordy. I have retreated from this thread due to lack of interest. I did . . . however . . . feel you deserved some feedback.

I wish you well.

Wow, what a feedback!

Nobody seems to have "got" my quotes as much as you did.

A 3rd grader may not be expected to know the high school material but, there are cases in real life that prove some 3rd graders do, prove it from what is accepted as normal or usual and common knowledge by almost all.

If a 3rd grader conforms of what is expected by them, to know the material of their own grade and nothing more than this, surely , their potential may be impaired or never be fulfilled or pursued.

If the 3rd grader's teacher now or whoever has been grouped or paired together in real life, taught or encourage them to go beyond expectations, limitations or limiting beliefs of others and to, not know the high school material while in the 3rd grade but, go even further and higher than this and the stage they really are, even higher and further than their own teacher and themselves...now, that is something or great, isn't it?.

What I mean to say is, how many "teachers" or "masters" the above assigns to?.

What you said about learning what is true... learning first what is not true, definitely, assigns to my way of learning.

However, what do you have to say about those who claim that "the world is an illusion" and "everything in the world is an illusion"?.

What I am saying is that this is what they created for themselves, nothing but an illusion and illusions, truth turned to be "subjective" same goes for "reality" and a thousand persons according to this viewpoint may have , a thousand realities in which absolutely nothing is real and none of these realities are the truth or real, just for themselves.

As far as the general idea goes, all is one , no-one is separated after they created a whole chasm and separateness from others.

Preparation and planning or knowledge on an intellectual level to reach a destination or travel to a country means absolutely nothing at all for me and according to my experience but, I understand why you say this in regards to spirituality and on "a spiritual level".

What if your passport , money and clothes are all stolen when you reach your destination country at which you have no friends, family and most of all, you do not speak the language, despite the planning and preparation you made?.

Where does another go in the dark and middle of the night, having all taken place just half an hour prior to midnight, with no passport, no identity, no money or clothes?.

Everyone can bla bla bla bla , theorise and philosophise from the safety of their own home, even come up with FANCY WORDS and sentences, to show off their intellect or social status but, what about when faced with adversity, life circumstances and difficulties which were/are completely unpredictable and unforeseen that despite all great planning and preparation , still, have taken place and may take place?.

It's in the face of adversity and life difficulties, in the overcoming of obstacles that the advanced soul even life force energy or kundalini, some may wanna call, as well as how awaken another can be seen as well as perceived by me.

Originally Posted by Sunshine111

However, what do you have to say about those who claim that "the world is an illusion" and "everything in the world is an illusion"?.

What I am saying is that this is what they created for themselves, nothing but an illusion and illusions, truth turned to be "subjective" same goes for "reality" and a thousand persons according to this viewpoint may have , a thousand realities in which absolutely nothing is real and none of these realities are the truth or real, just for themselves.

As far as the general idea goes, all is one , no-one is separated after they created a whole chasm and separateness from others.

I think you're misunderstanding the real and unreal thing. It's exactly the same thing as the difference in physics between the gross level of reality we perceive and the subtle level of reality that exists beyond the ability of our senses to perceive. Phenomenon vs. noumenon.

Is a table as we perceive it reality? Is it really 100% solid? Or are the atoms it's made up of 99.999999% empty? And even the 0.000001% of something is only a probability of observing something, and the measurement problem in quantum mechanics demonstrates that probability is dependent on observation.

This is why many of the founders of quantum mechanics were very open to Eastern non-duality.

And today one of the main drives of physics is a theory of everything, which generally states at high enough energy levels there's one unified field at the bottom of reality where all the diversity we experience arises from.

So no illusion and certainly not 7 billion individual illusions. Objective reality is real enough but just not absolute reality.

To make a comparison, physics posits all diverse noumenon arise from one unified field. In non-duality it's posited all diverse phenomenon arise from one unified consciousness and that consciousness is what we are at the deepest core of being. An interesting speculation is the unified field is the exact same thing as unified consciousness. That is science and spirituality are seeking the exact same truth.

Practical implication? If one understands, accepts, identifies with and lives life as the immortal nature of their being (awareness) vs. the transient aspect (body-mind) one is liberated from suffering, even fear of death. That's enlightenment.

[Sunshine111]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I think you're misunderstanding the real and unreal thing. It's exactly the same thing as the difference in physics between the gross level of reality we perceive and the subtle level of reality that exists beyond the ability of our senses to perceive. Phenomenon vs. noumenon.

Is a table as we perceive it reality? Is it really 100% solid? Or are the atoms it's made up of 99.999999% empty? And even the 0.000001% of something is only a probability of observing something, and the measurement problem in quantum mechanics demonstrates that probability is dependent on observation.

This is why many of the founders of quantum mechanics were very open to Eastern non-duality.

And today one of the main drives of physics is a theory of everything, which generally states at high enough energy levels there's one unified field at the bottom of reality where all the diversity we experience arises from.

So no illusion and certainly not 7 billion individual illusions. Objective reality is real enough but just not absolute reality.

To make a comparison, physics posits all diverse noumenon arise from one unified field. In non-duality it's posited all diverse phenomenon arise from one unified consciousness and that consciousness is what we are at the deepest core of being. An interesting speculation is the unified field is the exact same thing as unified consciousness. That is science and spirituality are seeking the exact same truth.

Practical implication? If one understands, accepts, identifies with and lives life as the immortal nature of their being (awareness) vs. the transient aspect (body-mind) one is liberated from suffering, even fear of death. That's enlightenment.

Hi Simple Guy,

My knowledge of physics is absolutely zero so, you are basically speaking about something, I consider myself to know absolutely nothing about.

But, I will re-read my post and yours when I find time and see whether there's any validity for me in what you say or what I said, once again, may have been perceived wrongly or taken completely out of context.

No offense meant by this whatsoever. Now, I have to travel 25 Kms to get back home so, until next time, take care!

Originally Posted by Sunshine111

Hi Simple Guy,

My knowledge of physics is absolutely zero so, you are basically speaking about something, I consider myself to know absolutely nothing about.

But, I will re-read my post and yours when I find time and see whether there's any validity for me in what you say or what I said, once again, may have been perceived wrongly or taken completely out of context.

No offense meant by this whatsoever. Now, I have to travel 25 Kms to get back home so, until next time, take care!

No problem whatsoever. It's just a discussion or exchange of ideas and understanding. No one knows everything. We all have little niches where we might know a little more and others a little less than someone else.

As for physics I have a decent surface level grasp but the math is way above my head. In fact I'd say there's not a single sphere of knowledge I'm familiar with in which I'm even close to an expert, except my job which is mainframe info tech, and even then I'm certain there are many far more knowledgeable than I and I'm no slouch.

There's always someone somewhere bigger ready to knock one down a few notches. LOL!

[zorkchop]

JustASimpleGuy . . .

I saw your first post along these same lines and figured to not respond . . . to just let the thread die. With your second post being a bit more complete . . . I will say that these answers are right along the reasons for my starting this thread in the first place. This is the approach of the vast majority of “answers” on this . . . and other forum boards . . . in that they are massive generalities and without actual clarification . . . and again . . . this is to be absolutely expected. When mind wrestles with something like this . . . it calls in some vague category or label and accepts that as an answer. Mind is perfectly happy to say . . . “There. It’s a habit of the mind. Don’t know what our true nature is but we gotta live by that. We just need method and dedication . . . that’s all.”

Anyone who does not *totally* agree with this approach through direct personal experience . . . all of this would be Greek to those people. Again . . . this is all by design. I applaud you for even trying . . . and I do NOT wish to make you some kind of “scapegoat” in all of this. This is the nature of this level of the Path. You are in the majority. This is the approach of many.

Look at it this way . . .

Person A comes and asks the question . . . “I want to be more physically healthy. How do I do that?”

As an example . . . your answer . . . “Eat.”

Person A then says . . . “Um . . . eat . . . what?”

As an example . . . “Eat . . . food.”

Translation . . . NO help.

Your first post was . . . meditate.

So . . . let’s say . . . person A has low self-worth . . . or has anger issues . . . or has trouble with forgiveness . . . etc. x thousands . . . and they don’t even know what the real issue is? Not something they can approach. Not something they can identify. Meditate how . . . to uncover something like this . . . let alone to gain ground. What meditative approach would you use to address low self-esteem / etc.?

Inwardly. Distinctly. And yes . . . I realize . . . there would be multiple ways.

“Tame the habits of the mind?” Isn’t that what the first phase of my initial post was all about . . . how to even perceive what those are / that is?

So . . . HOW . . . do you tame the habits of the mind . . . specifically and explicitly . . . as inavalan asked.

Method and dedication? What does that tell anyone who isn’t exceptionally well-versed in both?

Please . . . again . . . try not to take this personally. You were the only one who even tried. I’m not going to go pull other examples from other threads. That’s unnecessary and not what I am here to do.

By now . . . you can tell there IS no interest in this. You have done more than most all others just to take it this far.

And I’m not going to even approach the whole “physics” angle in all of this. I know that is between you and Sunshine anyway. We got into enough of a tangent just trying to stay on the track of uncovering personal habit, et al.

On we go.

[zorkchop]

Sunshine . . .

Yes . . . I know there will always be those who want to claim . . . “Not always” or “Not everyone” . . . in reference to the rogue 3rd grader that may be a touch more advanced. That individual isn’t really a 3rd grader according to his level of advancement but IS a 3rd grader according to where society places him or her. How many times do you see THAT in todays world?

A 3rd grader is not supposed to “advance” until s/he knows the curriculum well. Obviously . . . that does not apply in today’s world. Kids will be advanced just for showing up every day. How complete is their training?

That is one of the reasons why I claimed that the Path is ruthless and offers no shortcuts, etc. Each individual WILL learn. No exceptions. Time is immaterial.

Teachers teach what they know. Teachers ARE available to each and every student . . . no matter the level . . . all the way to the “end” . . . so to speak.

As far as illusion goes . . . I would say . . . illusion is a paradox . . . in that it is . . . and it isn’t. I would bet you know what the difference is. You have learned much . . . and you have learned well. You are to be commended in all of this. But “illusion” is not for this thread.

I don’t even what to approach the “all is one / separation” / and all of that. The mind LOVES that kind of query . . . and can spin endlessly . . . in ANY direction.

As far as the entire approach to “preparation” . . . my point was . . . people tend to get all caught up in “growth” and forget HOW to grow. They just want to get from Point A to Point B . . . with no real preparation. Then they find themselves over their heads and in real trouble. Real psychic energies will spin someone right into the mental wards if not handled correctly.

People tend to want to find the one or two exceptions to disprove most anything of value. VERY little in these worlds is ALL black or ALL white. There are always exceptions. Many like to find the exceptions so they do not have to consider what they are being told. It lets them off the hook . . . so to speak.

No . . . this isn’t in reference to anything you said. This is just a general tendency of the multitudes . . . and of the human state of consciousness.

Lastly . . . you have walked your Path well. Though there is much ahead for you . . . and for me . . . I am happy to have met you.