Is your mind your enemy?

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Ah, such a complicated approach to something which is so simple.

Is the mind really capable of observing itself? How do we experience the mind? Simply one thought at a time, arising out of nothing and dissolving back into nothing. This nothing is simply the awareness of Being, and it is this awareness which observes thoughts coming and going.

So let go of thoughts and rest in the empty space. The organism will continue to survive without the need for any intervention from the mind. Everything continues doing whatever it does, but we do nothing.

Peace.

Is that the reply when the mind asks itself "What is your function and purpose?". Ask without predjudice so you wont be given what you want to hear:). You might be surprised

[Gem]

Originally Posted by God-Like

You don't know based upon memory loss? Or because what you are is fundamentally indescribable? Or perhaps you don't know why you don't know? Or something else?

What's with the 20 questions?

You notice an image in reflection of what you believe you are / think you are .

Basically, I just notice a self impression which I guess is formed as the sum result of all my past experience.

I agree we don't need to computerise it all out loud so to speak although somewhere down the line we do recognise / notice things because we have already worked it out what we believe we are in relation to everything else .

OK, I don't see that myself, but it may be something I don't know. In terms of relating to everything else it's more like all that stuff is 'not-self'. It has no intrinsic substance, identity. There is nothing to it - which is not to say its unimportant, because it is the real lived experience.

Certain things that disrupt my peace perhaps wouldn't disrupt others so what constitutes a disruption again, boils down to how one perceives themselves in reflection of the noise .

Yes, a disruption, which I just call reactivity, is inherently egocentric. That's the reflection I guess?

So you know you are presence beyond what appears so perhaps when you said you didn't know whom notices reactivities then this presence could be what you are as a reflection of self .

Well that one doesn't experience anything but it reveals my nature, so I guess that's reflection.

Or self is a reflection of this presence? Same thing really . So this presence can think and feel and yet the personality / character traits are associated with no-one?

It doesn't seem to think or feel. I really don't understand it at all but am basically happy with the way it happens to be.

[swampgrl]

The little picture is yes, the mind is the enemy.
The big picture is the mind is that and infinitely more!

It's the mind that also gives us the mystical.

If a place of endless suffering exists it will be first realized in the mind.
If a place of nothing but peace, love and understanding exists it will also first be realized in the mind.
....and every version in between.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Gem

What's with the 20 questions?


Basically, I just notice a self impression which I guess is formed as the sum result of all my past experience.


OK, I don't see that myself, but it may be something I don't know. In terms of relating to everything else it's more like all that stuff is 'not-self'. It has no intrinsic substance, identity. There is nothing to it - which is not to say its unimportant, because it is the real lived experience.


Yes, a disruption, which I just call reactivity, is inherently egocentric. That's the reflection I guess?


Well that one doesn't experience anything but it reveals my nature, so I guess that's reflection.


It doesn't seem to think or feel. I really don't understand it at all but am basically happy with the way it happens to be.

Sorry for the questions, I was just trying to understand if you don't know because of something specific or not .

I agree that your self impression is formed as the sum result of all your past experience this is what I refer to as self reflection/s .

You can't say anything about anything without these reflections in toe . You wouldn't make sense of what you are or what anything else is otherwise .

These self reflections / impressions carry with them a sense of self identity even if certain masters would say different . The whole I am awareness thingy and not a peep thing carries with it the same energy / self identification / impression / reflection .



x daz x

[Gem]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Sorry for the questions, I was just trying to understand if you don't know because of something specific or not .

I agree that your self impression is formed as the sum result of all your past experience this is what I refer to as self reflection/s .

You can't say anything about anything without these reflections in toe . You wouldn't make sense of what you are or what anything else is otherwise .

These self reflections / impressions carry with them a sense of self identity even if certain masters would say different . The whole I am awareness thingy and not a peep thing carries with it the same energy / self identification / impression / reflection .



x daz x

Most I have heard say recognising the illusion of the 'self-character' is the release from bondage, but in practice there is an ongoing dissolution of the self character in it's mind/body form, which can be finalised upon death after the process reaches its completion (which might be in another life).

There is nothing wrong with the process, so the desire to be the one who reaches completion is inherently misguided, whereas the desire to discover the truth will leave one without any craving for future being... or non-being. Hence 'you' can't be the one to be fully enlightened, because it is your complete dissolution, and when it makes no difference at all if you are or you are not, then you feel free.

In that, if we every go to that brink, we will see any clinging very clearly, and we will fully understand its nature, which is bondage. This doesn't mean it will end. It just means we realise the nature of bondage, and the letting go necessary for liberation. We might not be able to let go in the fundamental way due to fear, and because we are unable we are not 'free'.

Here we come to a most difficult place, because there is no increment and it is 'all or nothing', so to speak. There may or may not be anyone coming back (that is unknown), but back to what? Back to what is 'known'. So the fear element of that point is a fear of letting go of the known, and the known is ultimately what we cling to. To cross into the unknown, the inexplicable, incomprehensible, mysterious is not gradual - not a path - but just one step.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Gem

Most I have heard say recognising the illusion of the 'self-character' is the release from bondage, but in practice there is an ongoing dissolution of the self character in it's mind/body form, which can be finalised upon death after the process reaches its completion (which might be in another life).

There is nothing wrong with the process, so the desire to be the one who reaches completion is inherently misguided, whereas the desire to discover the truth will leave one without any craving for future being... or non-being. Hence 'you' can't be the one to be fully enlightened, because it is your complete dissolution, and when it makes no difference at all if you are or you are not, then you feel free.

In that, if we every go to that brink, we will see any clinging very clearly, and we will fully understand its nature, which is bondage. This doesn't mean it will end. It just means we realise the nature of bondage, and the letting go necessary for liberation. We might not be able to let go in the fundamental way due to fear, and because we are unable we are not 'free'.

Here we come to a most difficult place, because there is no increment and it is 'all or nothing', so to speak. There may or may not be anyone coming back (that is unknown), but back to what? Back to what is 'known'. So the fear element of that point is a fear of letting go of the known, and the known is ultimately what we cling to. To cross into the unknown, the inexplicable, incomprehensible, mysterious is not gradual - not a path - but just one step.

So many levels to what you speak of here . What comes to mind is a bird in a cage oblivious to the outdoor space .

Is the bird anymore or less free through his ignorance .

Is the bird that flies freely anymore freer from it's own self awareness or lack of it?

It's swings and roundabout from whichever angle you look at things ..

Not caring if what you are is real or a hologram, or that one's character traits are illusory or not caring where your next dollar comes from .. is that absolute liberation .. I say not .. It's just liberation from one aspect of knowing ..

Life or the process continues like you say and there is nothing wrong with it, peeps who don't care about where there next meal comes from might care about their loved one's or they might be attached to their only pair of beaten up trainers .. being liberated from one thing or being unattached from one thing can normally result in substituting one attachment for another, one gives up the ciggies and starts to chew gum .

Peeps that feel liberated by relating their self as illusory still go about their business as if they are not .. I know / realize that what I am is beyond illusions and stories, butt when something happens that I am aware of that effects me, it effects me ... so from that perspective there is no liberation despite what one believes .



x daz x

[Gem]

Originally Posted by God-Like

So many levels to what you speak of here . What comes to mind is a bird in a cage oblivious to the outdoor space .

Is the bird anymore or less free through his ignorance .

Is the bird that flies freely anymore freer from it's own self awareness or lack of it?

It's swings and roundabout from whichever angle you look at things ..

Not caring if what you are is real or a hologram, or that one's character traits are illusory or not caring where your next dollar comes from .. is that absolute liberation .. I say not .. It's just liberation from one aspect of knowing ..

Life or the process continues like you say and there is nothing wrong with it, peeps who don't care about where there next meal comes from might care about their loved one's or they might be attached to their only pair of beaten up trainers .. being liberated from one thing or being unattached from one thing can normally result in substituting one attachment for another, one gives up the ciggies and starts to chew gum .

Peeps that feel liberated by relating their self as illusory still go about their business as if they are not .. I know / realize that what I am is beyond illusions and stories, butt when something happens that I am aware of that effects me, it effects me ... so from that perspective there is no liberation despite what one believes .



x daz x

We have the knowing if we are in bondage or if we are liberated, so the bird does not example anything.

Ignorance in this context is just unformed wisdom and delusion, and it's problematic, as all nature of misery and atrocity stem from this.

Caring is a completely different thing in terms of compassion, But being unattached to any idea of 'myself' is liberating.

Because liberation or contentment in the deeper sense of those words is beyond any experience, and we never find satisfaction through experiences, we stop craving things so much, become very ardent about the truth, and start to 'trust in the universe' in it's whole process. It's very relaxing to just let it all be as it is.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Gem

We have the knowing if we are in bondage or if we are liberated, so the bird does not example anything.

Ignorance in this context is just unformed wisdom and delusion, and it's problematic, as all nature of misery and atrocity stem from this.

Caring is a completely different thing in terms of compassion, But being unattached to any idea of 'myself' is liberating.

Because liberation or contentment in the deeper sense of those words is beyond any experience, and we never find satisfaction through experiences, we stop craving things so much, become very ardent about the truth, and start to 'trust in the universe' in it's whole process. It's very relaxing to just let it all be as it is.

How can anyone be unattached to any idea of 'yourself' be liberating when you have the sum of all your experiences in toe that reflect what you believe you are .

Talk me through an experience where a peep goes about their business without any idea of themselves .

Why would they go about their business in the first place without any self recognition had .

I mean a peep can't even go for a pee without self identifying themselves with the body function .

Is such a peep liberated while knowing that aspect?

Maybe we have different ideas about what constitutes an idea about oneself?

and like said peeps still suffer whether one believes themselves to be awareness, consciousness, or an illusion or a hologram or believes they have no idea relating to what they are .


x daz x

[Gem]

Originally Posted by God-Like

How can anyone be unattached to any idea of 'yourself' be liberating when you have the sum of all your experiences in toe that reflect what you believe you are .

Like letting it be as it is, as you are.

Talk me through an experience where a peep goes about their business without any idea of themselves .

One is completely immersed with their activity.

Why would they go about their business in the first place without any self recognition had .

They have to walk their path and don;t really have any choice. If it rains they open umbrellas, it it's hot they take of their coat. The universe is in momentary unison, and in the very moment it is there, and one can inquire of themselves, is there anything I can do about this very moment?

I mean a peep can't even go for a pee without self identifying themselves with the body function .

People will pee even if unconscious.

Is such a peep liberated while knowing that aspect?

I went over this before, and the short answer is, not necessarily.

Maybe we have different ideas about what constitutes an idea about oneself?

and like said peeps still suffer whether one believes themselves to be awareness, consciousness, or an illusion or a hologram or believes they have no idea relating to what they are .


x daz x

That's because all beliefs are fabrications of the mind. We can see them as thoughts.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Gem

Like letting it be as it is, as you are.

Butt suggesting letting it be as it is, IS self referencing isn't it ..

Originally Posted by Gem

One is completely immersed with their activity.

Okay I can understand that and agree with that to a certain extent for many a time I lose myself in certain activities .. butt one can't immerse themselves 24/7 so one finds themselves regaining or switching to a level of self awareness that is absolutely containing an idea of what they are .

I mean certain things can be done as an activity where there is a meditative state acquired and doing the dishes and such likes can be done in a way where one just finds themselves doing them without thinking too much but there are levels of awareness that are still present and reflected otherwise one could potentially stop what they are doing because there is no attachment or reason for doing them .. why would one continue to wash the dishes if there is no self reflectance happening ..

Originally Posted by Gem

They have to walk their path and don;t really have any choice. If it rains they open umbrellas, it it's hot they take of their coat. The universe is in momentary unison, and in the very moment it is there, and one can inquire of themselves, is there anything I can do about this very moment?

If it rains one can strip naked, if it's hot one can put on a onesie or like you say if it rains one can open an umbrella for these are all self preferences .. Why doesn't one want to get wet in the rain if it's not ego related?

Originally Posted by Gem

That's because all beliefs are fabrications of the mind. We can see them as thoughts.

You say again and make reference to 'we can see them as thoughts' it's this self reference that I keep talking about .. It's kinda like one minute your speaking of being immersed in what you are doing and the next you speak about what you are that knows that thoughts are fabrications of the mind .

So when you speak of fabrications of the mind you are in this present moment having an idea about yourself and what constitutes thoughts and mind .

If you were in this moment immersed within evaluating what constitutes mind and what are thoughts then how would you say what you say without any self reference in toe .


x daz x